Thoughts on ketches and yawls

[Paul Howard]

Those of us long time sailors with grey hair will remember Donald Street and his yawl Iolaire.
He wrote many cruising guides, books and articles and had a series of cruising charts for the Caribbean. He always praised his yawl, Iolaire, that he owned for 52 years. Look for some of his comments on the benefits of owning a yawl.

[picklesandjesse]

[QUOTE=Paul Howard;3521738]Those of us long time sailors with grey hair.........

How about no hair, does that count. He was a character. No engine either.

[RSB333]

I was lucky enough to cruise a Ted Brewer ketch - the Whitby 42. The center cockpit meant that the mizzen was aft of the cockpit, well out of the way, and provided lots of options for sail balance. A really fine design!
RSB333

[dfelsent]

Originally Posted by sailingunity

Mine is the same, no triatic stay, Olympic Adventure 47.

My mizzen mast is a quite stiff cross section. I have not been able to introduce much mast bend with the runners, nor have I really played with that. They are 4:1 tackles.
In one version of the ideal world I could flatten the mizzen upwind that way.
Of course in another ideal world the mizzen would be strong enough to stand up to a real blow. That’s where I am now. Happily.
Have you played with runner tension upwind?

The sail we are talking about is a little bit bigger than a J-24 main so it has a significant impact on performance.

[svfinlandia]

Originally Posted by dfelsent

Ketch owner here. I have posted before about the advantages of a split rig when sailing with a small crew -1 or 2- and a larger boat.
Basically the mizzen is a workhorse. Directional control, steadying, helm balance, ability to sail with jib and jigger(jib and mizzen) and more.
And no, it will not go to weather as well as a sloop rig with the same area.
But man it will reach. And when the breeze is up it can be much easier to handle.
Plus radar, wind gen, ais antenna all have their own spot.

Above are all the reasons that I love my ketch rigged Nauticat motorsailer.
I am mostly single hand and I find it very handy to leave the green seal down and just run “jib and jigger” most times. She balances and sails very nicely that way.

Al, S/V Finlandia

[rls8r]

I like my yawl. Before my current boat I've had smaller sloops and a Rhodes 40 cutter. My favorite rig before now was the cutter - but with my removable forestay I now have the best of both worlds.

I've heard many question the usefulness of the little scrap of sailcloth that makes the mizzen sail. However, it seems to me that the mizzen sail on my boat is a bit larger (comparatively) than those seen on other yawls (e.g., the Concordias, etc.). My mizzen sail seems to give a respectable push - and helps me balance the sail plan in a stiff breeze. I can douse it and become a sloop or a cutter - or I can keep it up and sail "jib and jigger." When the center of effort would otherwise be raised and moved forward when I "reef" my genoa - it is somewhat held back and down by flying the mizzen sail.

Being behind the rudder post, the mizzen mast is out of the cockpit - and it being near the after end of the cockpit allows me to mount a small seat on the mast so that I may sit while I'm steering (and still be able to see over the dodger). And, as others have mentioned - the mizzen mast is a great place for my radar, radar reflector, second antenna, and loudspeaker. Besides all that - Henry Hinckley said that the mizzen was a great place to let the "youngsters" practice going aloft.

Several respondents have mentioned the benefit of a mizzen mast in allowing a mizzen staysail to be set. I agree. One day last summer a catamaran (about the same length as my boat) and I were bobbing along in an 8-knot "breeze" - both at equal speed trying to get out of the West River and into the Bay. I raised my mizzen staysail and began to walk right past the catamaran. Both of us had looks of amazement - that a heavy, full-keel boat in a light breeze could walk past a catamaran!

I like the way chopping up the sail plan allows for more manageable (at least, for someone my age and strength) sails. My boat is a Mk III - which has a smaller main with a higher aspect ratio - stepped a bit farther back than earlier versions. The smaller main and the "medium-size" mizzen allow me to manage my sails without grief.

Before getting my boat I had never given much thought to yawls (or to ketches, for that matter). But now that I've sailed mine for a while - I find that I like the rig.

[svfinlandia]

Originally Posted by svfinlandia

Above are all the reasons that I love my ketch rigged Nauticat motorsailer.
I am mostly single hand and I find it very handy to leave the green seal down and just run “jib and jigger” most times. She balances and sails very nicely that way.

Al, S/V Finlandia

You got a love (hate) Voice recognition.
“Green seal” was supposed to be main sail.

Al

[Happ]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I've owned a ketch. Never owned a yawl. On the ketch, the mizzen was an incredibly useful sail. It provided significant cloth to produce real speed. Its location allowed for easy balancing of the rig. And it could be used as an aft air rudder to assist in directional control, balance and even steering.

The much smaller yawl lacks significant area, so I can't see it contributing much to the sail plan. It does look like a great air rudder, especially considering its placement aft of the rudder shaft.

Both are aesthetically pleasing to my eye, although I often find the yawl's tiny sail area to be kinda -- amusing.

Mike you left out line of the great values of a Ketch. In a strong wind you can fly a Jib and a Mizzen without the main. Great balance.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Happ

Mike you left out line of the great values of a Ketch. In a strong wind you can fly a Jib and a Mizzen without the main. Great balance.

Yes, absolutely. A ketch makes it easy to fly jib & jigger when the wind and seas pipe up. So easy to balance, and maintain speed and control.

I suppose you can do the same with a yawl, but as I said, most yawls have much smaller mizzen sails, so I assume you need to seriously reef the jib to maintain balance this way.

There's been mention of the ketch mizzen mast being in the way. I guess this depends on the boat. On my rather small ketch (34 feet), the mizzen was aft of the centre cockpit, so completely out of the way. And all control lines for the mizzen went right to the helm, so easy to manage.

[Elie]

Yole rig is a loophole of racing rule, CCA Ibelieve. Any sail area aft of DWL was a 'gift' by the rule, and not counted in total sail area. Useless except as a way to stedy the boat at anchor. Many such rules ave affected the design of boats and percoled down to cruising sailboats. If you remember the wings of keels used originaly on Australia 12 meter that won the America's cup. This contraption was immediatly implemented on cruising boats and created a ton of difficulties in cas of grounding.
Now the plumb bow find in modern cruising sailboats is also a effect of sailing rules.

[sanibel sailor]

When Sir Alec Rose in Lively Lady circumnavigated in the 60's, he kept the mizzen mast, but removed the mizzen sail and boom, using only the mizzen staysail.

[Captain Steve]

I have owned two ketches over the past 40 years: a Cape Dory 30 ketch, and for the past 31 years and one circumnavigation an AMEL Sharki 40' ketch. I never intended to buy a ketch but wanted both these boats and at least in the case of the AMEL am very glad I did. The ketch rig has all the advantages others have listed. With "jib and jigger" I was able to sail under control in a steady 45 knots of wind with a heavily reefed Genoa and mizzen between Guadeloupe and Antigua in the Caribbean. On several occasions including a three day period while between Mozambique and Madagascar in the Mozambique channel on route to Richards Bay, South Africa we hove to in 6 meter seas and 45 knot winds with a heavily reefed main and mizzen (no jib). The advantage of having a significant separation between your VHF antenna and AIS antenna cannot be over emphasized for optimum performance. I also find that the mizzen tells me (by luffing) that I am trying to point too high. We almost always fly the mizzen except going dead downwind if it starts to cause the boat to yaw excessively. Sometimes it is useful very tight on the centerline of the boat to reduce rolling downwind. It would be hard to find a ketch now but worth the effort. The only downside is the extra expense of having two masts for painting or rigging.

[MicHughV]

My first boat was a Roberts 38 ketch. I loved that rig, it was simple, easily managed, versatile, and oh so pretty.

I'm a diehard ketch fan !!!

[Jimmyhenry]

I’m a ketch owner. Love the mizzen. Very easy handling. Great combination with Genia and no main up. Makes a very easy ride. Maybe not a racing combination. Although several did the Whitbread circumnavigation race.
Pete

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Jimmyhenry

I’m a ketch owner. Love the mizzen. Very easy handling. Great combination with Genia and no main up. Makes a very easy ride. Maybe not a racing combination. Although one did win the Whitbread circumnavigation race.
Pete

Fixed that for you..

Your welcome..