The Death of the Ketch ?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

Dunno about your other opponents but to me you are a warm water wussie
Anyway looking down from here 70deg north by Barents sea

You were lucky to have a lake! There were a hundred and fifty of us living in t' shoebox in t' middle o' road.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by Blue Stocking

Keep an eye open for Kenner Privateer, or O'Day 37, Alberg 35.
Bluestocking, a Philip Rhodes, Reliant 41, is a Yawl.
One disadvantage is you complicate the cockpit area with a small split rig.

So true...I've seen 30ft. Ketch's. It seem silly. I had an Ingrid 38 Ketch which I was in love with. Then I got the rigging bill and almost divorced her.

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by Coops

So, in that case, Herreschoff, John Alden, and numerous others are just screw-ups?

Coops.

If they had todays knowledge, with todays materials, I doubt
very much if the boat would have been of anything other than what you see on the market today..
Look at the cars and trucks of the 40s.. do you think a designer of a 40s style car would be building the same design today.. dont think so..
Times change, materials change, and the needs change..

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Firstly many standard production boats have circumnavigated , including one of our CF members own, single handed for an Atlantic crossing in a beneteaus 393 ( a death trap according to the fogies) he derided the fogies comments regularly

Long keels were a function of wooden construction techniques, ketches were popularised by club racing rules that didn't count mizzen area. Nothing that has to do with sailing ability , long overhangs have nothing to do with seaworthiness they were rule beaters. Most traditional working sail boats had vertical stems and quite wide transoms. Why , because it worked, not that it was easy on the eye.

Why did ketches die off. , well in the 35 to 55 foot range the mizzen was never big enough to matter, and it slowed the boat going to windward.

Secondly improved technology in sail handling has made sloops easier to use

The fact is a well rigged sloop is also simply faster then a ketch, on all points of sail, there hasn't been a ocean racer since steinlager that was ketch rigged. Get over it. If you like ketches sail them, but don't tell me there are any better ( in most cases they are worse) ( see Beth and Evans comments when they switched from a ketch to a sloop, but hey don't listen to anyone that might know anything ) show me the long overhangs on Dashews boats. !!

In larger boats there is still some advantages To ketches as the apace allows a good mizzen area and the separation distance between the masts allows a proper mizzen stay sail

As to the fogies that rabbit on about sea worthiness. I have delivered boats all over the place mostly out of season. I've proberly by this stage sailed through more storms that most cruisers meet in a lifetime. I also live above 55 degree north. We get f8-f10 s in summer for gods sake. Are all the boats here long keeled with overhangs , of course not. In Europe that design has virtually disappeared. Tell me a 2day sail in Atlantic coastal waters , on a lee shore with 55knots of wind over the deck is of less consequence then a milk run across a tropic ocean. Please.

To my mind most that crititise , have never sailed anywhere challenging and are armchair pundits. Go into harbours around the world at circumnavigation hot points, what do you see, loads of Euro production cruisers.

Why do Taiwan or Chinese built US styled boats not sell at all in Europe , reason , few like them , most distrust far east builds and they look old fashioned. If they were good we have loads of them ( in the same way the US builders dominate the small sports boat market in Europe) . They look nice to my eye , but hats about it.

Seaworthiness is not about keels or rudders.

In the US , which is by comparison a tiny sailing nation, there is a penchant for retro-design for no good reason other then "taste" . In profilic sailing nations like the scandavians , the French and new Zealand you will see no such trend they sail fast moden designs , they sail them everywhere , they also win every damm race on the planet.

I was in Madeira when the rally iles du soleil came in , was there a long keel amongst them , not that I could see, all production sloops and cats.

I like long overhangs I like like the older looks too, I also like steam locomotives and paddle steamers. I however want to travel from A to B on a TGV. I like old aircraft as well, I fly to the US on an airbus however.

Technology has played a part in boat design since man picked up an adze. To ignore modern nautical design, with finite stress analysis , advanced computer modelling of water flow , laminar design, advanced manufacturing is ridiculous. You mightn't like the look of it but that's a different argument. Boats today are stronger then ever. The worst GRP boat is stronger then any wooden boat anyway. ( size for size)

People talking about death traps really boil my blood, many 100s of thousands are sailing , incidents proportionally are lower then before, serious loss of life is rare. ( and often nothing to do with the quality of boat)

I've sailed long keels that were dogs , I've sailed fins that were were poor, I've seen Skeg hung rudders fail and virtually take the Skeg off, I seen problems with spade rudders, well designed boats perform well, badly designed less so.

This obsession, mainly US centric with older designs always amuses Europeans, ( the French comment that Amel, " is an old persons boat ") these long keel debates rarely occur on European forums.

People talk about say Tayanas being seaworthy , yet look at the deck gear, look at the delamination, look at why so few are sold in Europe , even though they went to CE certification. Look at the number of specialised US makers selling sail boats in Europe. , it's nonexistent statistically. Why because the designs are outdated, overpriced and old fashioned . The fact is if they were right, they would sell 1000s. .

The more " traditional" designs tend to sell to people who " like the look " there's no evidence that these people are any better sailors or have more offshore experience, there is enough of these people to keep a few specialist builders in business, producing a few boats a year ( at very large markups )

Comments here about production sloops are myopic, misguided, based on a lack of knowledge and just plain wrong.

Best post ever. ^

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by zeehag

ketch rigs do not cost more than sloops. get real. price em. re-rigging doesnt have to cost the 10,000usd previous .

Bull!...My Ketch had more than twice the wires of a sloop. And consider the sails. 2 mains of sail area equal to one sloop main of equal total area is 70% more. For my Ingrid Ketch the wires, swaging and a roller furling was $10,000. The wire and swaging was $5700. I have a HR sloop now. The rig is smaller than the Ketch and my rigging bill for the wire is $800. If you added roller furling it would be around $3000 vs. $10,000.

[Curmudgeon]

A Cherubini 44 ketch will beat the pants off many "modern" production monohulls of similar length on all points of sail except a close reach. The Cherubini will exceed hull speed under certain conditions. A 20 year-old Cherubini 44, Silhouette, won the 2007 Marion Bermuda race (Founder's Trophy for best overall performance).

One factor in Silhouette's victory was the fact that she had very seakindly performance in the gulf stream. Another was the fact that, with two spars, she could put up more sail area than the sloops. And of course she was the prettiest boat in the race, for those who care about such things.

[MacG]

It seems that there are quite a number of different opinions among the CF members.
Goboating has his views but that does not imply that they are correct on all points. But his opinion is interesting for promoting further discussions.

I prefer a sloop over a ketch. The second sail is - as I see it - a nuisance. Goboating claims that the ketch rig was for accommodating the club racing rules.
That is not true, that was for the yawl only. And that was long ago. That was a very short time and ended soon.
The ketch rig is a total different story. Ask Ted Hood and see Anakena. And the many other yachts that are still produced with a ketch rig.

It is clear that a ketch rig is much more expensive than a sloop rig. No doubts about that.
The long keels had nothing to do with the wooden construction era. Nor with design rules. It was a matter of the opinion and a prolongation of traditional yachtbuilding.
It was Ricus van de Stadt who quite early started with the fin keel as it is known today; same for the balance rudder and/or spade rudder.
CAD and computer technologies changed a lot over the years. Not always for the better,
but generally made it possible to predict certain characteristics and today there is no design made just plainly on the drawing board.

The designers' s experience is all that counts. Indifferent where they are located.
The arrival of the fin keel as per today was a slow process that took about 20 years to materialise. A process that had nothing to do with the construction methods of the past but was an improvement of or in the design process.

Ketches are still build- not to avoid club racing rules but to the requirements of mostly experienced owners. The same for schooners. Marie Cha IV shows that a staysail schooner rig is very efficient, be it that more handling is required but on a yacht of that size is such a fact totally unimportant.

That the ketch-rig' s impopularity has to be sought in the fact that it makes the production boat more expensive might be the very reason of it' s slow dying process.

Efficiency is not the factor, costs of material are.

[GaryMayo]

Originally Posted by Piglet

Best post ever. ^

Explaining a bumble bee, might very well ground them, till you look out the window and see them flying. Knowledge while important, and admirable, does not explain everything, and may explain it one way today, and explain it another way tomorrow, as evident in textbooks always being outdated and replaced.

I can draw a banana, but I cannot draw how it tastes. The world is not all Fords or all Chevys. No one brand gets 100% marketnshare. Beyond that, there are how many car makers? Is it because 60% of the car buyers get it wrong? No, it is because of a little thing called the selection.

You cannot walk into a Dusenberry dealership today and pick out a duzy because it was a bad design. Selection killed the Duzy why? It was so much better than anyone needed. One does not need a perfect mousetrap, one needs a mousetrap, that catches mice, and for the fewest dollars spent.

Nature did not design a bumble bee to be efficient, or it would look like a hornet. A ketch sailboat is what nature would have designed to show off.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Bash

A less romantic view, perhaps:

The ketch rig was a necessary evil before the technology existed to handle large sails. Splitting the rig kept the sails small enough to manage with a short-handed crew. Two things killed the ketch: (1) developments in winch technology, beginning with multi-speed, self-tailing winches and moving through powered winches; (2) better reefing technologies, beginning with single-line reefing and moving through in-mast and in-boom furling systems.

Unless the boat is big enough that the mizzen won't sit in the cockpit, the disadvantages of a ketch far outweigh it's advantages.

Then how do you explain a boat like mine, which is ketch rigged but has power in mast furling and power winches? It's not just about splitting the rig for ease of handling, it's about balancing the helm on ANY point of sail.

[GaryMayo]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

"............ And of course she was the prettiest boat in the race, for those who care about such things.

Now we have hit the nail on the head. When one sails from point "A" to point "B"' it is point CDEFG& H that sits back, 100% disconnected from what is happening, and can truly appreciate it.

When I leave my lake, I ALWAYS stop my vehicle near the water and watch the sailboats for a few minutes. Why? I just spent hours sailing my sailboat, surely, that should be enough.

[GaryMayo]

Why did I pick a ketch, over a sloop to sail? I own both a sloop 32 and a ketch 32, so I could sail either one, I purchased the sloop first.

100% looks of the sailboat. I think the sloop is easier to sail, it is a little faster, mainly because there is less to fiddle with and get wrong.

Looking at them both, it is my ketch I enjoy most. I love the aft cabin, I love the center cockpit (which is smaller by 30%) and I get the feeling I want from a sailboat in my ketch. I purchased my sloop thinking that was all I was going to find, in the sailboat brand I picked for myself, and I would have been comfortable with that, but a week later, I found my ketch, and snatched that up, and now the sloop sits on a trailer as a organ donor when I need something. If I wanted speed, ease of sailing, lower prices for future rigging, I am using the wrong sailboat for the donor boat.

[zeehag]

dont forget i am sailing a ketch

i also own a sloop.

made long passages in fair as well as foul weather. ran with very high winds in both..

i agree with minaret. the side effect of this is comfort while sailing well balanced..... long passages are so much nicer, and even with longer watches neither of us was exhausted at any time --love it.

isnt about who is first to the party, is about how ye are when ye get there. comfortable or exhausted. btdt with single mast as well as two masts

[Bash]

Originally Posted by minaret

Then how do you explain a boat like mine, which is ketch rigged but has power in mast furling and power winches?

In a word: "motorsailer."

(Not my term, by the way. Check what the manufacturer calls them: Nauticat Yachts )

[Bash]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I think Mari Chas are ketches too.

Mari Cha III is a ketch.
Mari Cha IV is a twin-masted schooner.

[micah719]

Efficiency means how well a thing does what it is intended to do. Effective is another good word but doesn't automatically pair up with efficient.

Captain Testicle McMoney won't find the cruising ketch setup efficient for amassing his trophies, and Poor Joe Slow won't want a primadonna racing sloop keeping him tied up with repairs all the time, or wringing his guts out every time the wind goes beyond coastal daysail strength. Horses for courses, and plenty of room left for personal taste and preferences.

I'm not sneering at the mass-production stuff, but I feel sorry for the Jones' that cannot be free anywhere they go because they insist on bringing it all with them. Meaning the neurotic compulsion to do everything fast fast fast, and trying to look like the advertising. Hmmm, perhaps it's time to look at the world "cruise" and see what it means, or at least did before Newspeak.