The Death of the Ketch ?

[zeehag]

anyone who thinks is an obsolete design should come out sailing and see what is out here and actually in use. not talkin dock queens--actually cruising.
racers use sloops and multihulls.
any alleged extra cost is bs and irrelevant, isnt worth the difference in change.

am surprised the poster saying he hasnt seen any multihull ketch riggged--lol--GO OUT SAILING-- you will see everything--and more often than not--more than 3 of everything--so ----stop generalizing until you have seen everything. i saw ketch rigged multis in san diego and i see them out here cruising.

and when your sloop is bashing into weather and only gaining one knot over ground and you watch as a smallish cruising ketch slides by using merely jib and mizzen, you will KNOW why the ketch rig is not going to become obsolete.

[Celestialsailor]

I loved my Ingrid ketch. But single handing would be a challenge if conditions deteriorated.

[zeehag]

drop main and use mizzen and jib nd is a lot easier than manhandling that hugeous main--if i anticipate weather or i am in a known wind zone i dont even use main. then biiiig winds are actually kinda fun.

[Stumble]

Zee,

Just out of curiosity why have you taken anything in the thread personally, or do you just like attacking other?

I said I haven't seen any ketch rigged cats, because I haven't. I never said there weren't any. As for getting out there... I spent ten years living on a cutter rigged Irwin 54 cruising from Florida to Venezuala when my parents retired young. And I still go down island as often as I can.

If you look at why multiple masts were developed though, they really are redundant with modern sail handling hardware, cost more, add complexity, add weight up high, and don't sail as well as a sloop.

If you think a well sailed sloop can't do better than 1kn over the bottom, then you clearly haven't sailed on any. Reefing down is not that difficult, and a sloop is pretty easy to balance. Your inability to do so says more about your ability, than that of the boat.

[GaryMayo]

Is death the right word? Am I really sailing a passenger pidgin or dodo bird?

Seems like another term might be decline, as many of us are still holding the ketch as our choice of sailboats.

Even if the gov starts taxing masts, I will stay at two.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by zeehag

anyone who thinks is an obsolete design should come out sailing and see what is out here and actually in use. not talkin dock queens--actually cruising.
racers use sloops and multihulls.
any alleged extra cost is bs and irrelevant, isnt worth the difference in change.

am surprised the poster saying he hasnt seen any multihull ketch riggged--lol--GO OUT SAILING-- you will see everything--and more often than not--more than 3 of everything--so ----stop generalizing until you have seen everything. i saw ketch rigged multis in san diego and i see them out here cruising.

and when your sloop is bashing into weather and only gaining one knot over ground and you watch as a smallish cruising ketch slides by using merely jib and mizzen, you will KNOW why the ketch rig is not going to become obsolete.

This is nonsense zeehag, you know what you are saying here is jibberish, take the Seldon catalogue and price up the cost of equipping a ketch. It's significantly more then a sloop.

As to going to windward on " job and jigger" please, it's a slow combination. Better drop the mizzen as many do. The sloop is the master of windward sailing NO ketch will outperform a properly sailed sloop to windward. ( equal for equal )

And please stop telling us to go sailing , your not he only one " out there"

I too have never seen a ketch rigged multi. I've seen drawings but not one in real life.

Sheesh

Dave

[GaryMayo]

I have two 32 foot sailboats of the same make and year, but one is an aft cockpit and one is a center cockpit. Also not the same colors.

If they were a perfect match, I would Red Green them together using something outlandish and try sailing them handcuffed together. I think that would be a great adventure! Would stop my wife voicing her disapproval over heeling anyway. Lol

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

This is nonsense zeehag, you know what you are saying here is jibberish, take the Seldon catalogue and price up the cost of equipping a ketch. It's significantly more then a sloop.

As to going to windward on " job and jigger" please, it's a slow combination. Better drop the mizzen as many do. The sloop is the master of windward sailing NO ketch will outperform a properly sailed sloop to windward. ( equal for equal

Just keep everything in the right proportions..
1# the price of a ketch rig is some more but how much depends of the sizing of the hardware accordingly. Sails on the mainmast are a bit smaller so is the equipment. Count every sail, furler, winch and running rigging and compare that "saving" against the extra cost of mizzen complete.
Of course if we compare any B.... with two undersized winches and excuses as mainsheet traveller there no way to beat those prices
2# Sloop is not the master of windward sailing. It's a cat rig and compared to that sloops cutters, yawls, ketches and schooners come into that order. However for a cruiser the ultimate windward ability is worth of what?.. 2¢
That is of course IMHO
BR Teddy

[MacG]

For our waters - North Sea - windward ability is an important asset. All year round winds will veer genereally from SW to NW and land will always on the lee shore. Occasionally an easterly shows up now and than.

Sailing the dangerous Wadden you will learn to appreciate a good windward ability. The design of the rig and make/shape of the sails is an important factor as well as placement/location of mast and its trimming.

Symmetry of the hull is another point.

In other waters windward ability might not so much needed so I can understand
why Catamarans, Ketches and Schooners are so popular in certain spots of ocean.

[minaret]

IMO a cutter beats a sloop for windward performance every time, but we don't see as many of them as we used to either. This tells me it's not about performance, but economics. If people were only concerned with getting the rig that points best they'd all be cutters instead of all being sloops. But just one extra stay with it's accompanying sails and rigging is too much extra complication for the modern sailor apparently...

[rolandgilbert99]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Roland,

There is no point of sail where a ketch is a better performer than a sloop, or cutter rig. They may have advantages in other areas, but performance isn't one of them. Mari-Cha iv and the rest of the high performance large boats are fast, very fast. But they are not even close to the same speed as other high performance boats, some even smaller.

For instance while MCiv holds the current record of a west-east passage across the Atlantic for a crewed boat. She did it more than a full knot slower than a more recent single handed attempt.

I was just refering to the good old time when Eric Tabarly was sailing his Pen Duick's some were ketches and at that time they were high performers. And I agree that perfomance is NOT the reason to choose a ketch rig.

[zeehag]

people who race, follow racing and do desk jockeying will never see the reasoning behind split rigs.
souls not into racing do enjoy comfortable cruising and ease in handling. sloops do not provide that ...i know-- sailed sloops most of my life since age 7 yrs. i now sail a ketch--my experiences in gom dictated a ketch would have been more appropriate due to the weather helm and other exhausting problems inherent in sloops-- we had a ketch leave us in wake due to weather and not enough sail plans for effective cruising. we were bashing at 1 kt over ground in a sloop while a jib n jigger ketch slipped swiftly by us. we experienced winds to 70 kts in gom while sailing that sloop. i found 60+ off baja in my ketch. was a lot more comfy and easier to handle without question in my ketch. we hit 8.4 kts over ground while sailing under reefed jib n reefed mizzen. very very slow sailing.
here in pacific i found jib n jogger perfect for the sudden HIGH winds experienced. jib n mizzen is a common cruising sail plan. is not fast, not by a long shot. but i am not in any races nor am i in a hurry to get to any gatherings.
no,one does NOT douse main last. main is a driving sail, not a balance nor steering sail. i never douse my main last. is always first to go . whether is a sloop or a ketch.


i find the behavior and words of folks not sailing yet bashing the chosen rig of a cruising sailor a bit on the abusive side of things--you may wish to cease being on the attack.. you accuse me of attacking-yet you are the attacker. i i choose to cruise my ketch. am out sailing these--
i also own currently a sloop which i will not take cruising. someone smart might just make a connection that mebbe i do know what i am talking about when i discuss the pricing i have found accurate for repairs of both rigs.
i have not been on the attack but defending -- you are having a problem with comprehension of terms and concept and reality.

you forget that i am out here sailing and seeing on an international level-- yes i HAVE seen the ketch rigged pivers and cross trimarans and others with ketch rigging--mebbe ye SHOULD get out more and leave your safe desk.

as for gibberish--only a trolling desk jockey would say that out loud. get real. i am in the here and now--where are you???? definitely not out seeing real life.


never pay retail

GENTLEMEN (AND LADIES) NEVER SAIL TO WEATHER......

[neilpride]

Zee, is because you say lots of nonsense stuff around, Multi kecht, a mizzen and all the related gear is litle $$$, my Formosa sail in 80 knts with mizzen and jib up, you know and i know that a Formosa is a Pig to sail , no doubt he is brilliant in other aspects ,but not in sailing perfomance,
Anyway hard to beat a sloop or cutter in windward work , dont take it personal is just a opinion.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Secondly ketches do not outperform sloops, if they did club racing would be full of them. Evidence speaks the truth

Well, yes and no. Most club racing is on windward/leeward courses, which is where the sloop will outperform a ketch for obvious reasons. Point too high in a ketch and the main gasses the mizzen; point to low and the mizzen gasses the main.

However, on a reach a ketch rig starts to earn its keep.

Some would argue that 80% of cruising is reaching, but I have not found this to be true in terms of my own experience where I always seem to have the wind on my nose or down the back of my neck.

Is it just me?

[Blue Stocking]

MIR, the 78ft, IIRC, ketch crossed the finish line at Diamondhead, sailing backwards with a chute rigged from the mizzen.
She had lost her mainmast earlier.
70's, I think it was. Famous picture.
I have backed Blue out of a tight berth using mizzen and helm.