Suggestions for a pre-liveaboard boat.

[WingRyder]

I thought these video's were enlightening:

https://youtu.be/xsnomC-SNuY

https://youtu.be/bk2A60ymfB0

[jlblan2]

Just remember that boats built after 1990 are of thinner construction because before that no one knew how much core and fiberglass would be required and they were overbuilt.

[Pizzazz]

I am against the starter boat concept. You end up paying twice for most things. Keep in mind that boat ownership is expensive. Slip fees, maintenance, sails, haul out, bottom paint, you break a few things here and there. Budget a minimum of $10K/year. If you get a sub 30 foot boat for $7K, you will not have enough space, spend $30K on her in the next three years and then probably sell it for the same $7K to get your permanent boat.

My suggestion is go for at least 30+ feet and plan to spend at least $10-14K for a moderately well maintained boat. If you are not ready now, wait.

[WingRyder]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

I am against the starter boat concept. You end up paying twice for most things. Keep in mind that boat ownership is expensive. Slip fees, maintenance, sails, haul out, bottom paint, you break a few things here and there. Budget a minimum of $10K/year. If you get a sub 30 foot boat for $7K, you will not have enough space, spend $30K on her in the next three years and then probably sell it for the same $7K to get your permanent boat.

My suggestion is go for at least 30+ feet and plan to spend at least $10-14K for a moderately well maintained boat. If you are not ready now, wait.

I am weighing the option of a starter boat vs renting boats and learning over the next 18+ months. If you haven't read the thread, I feel that owning a boat would allow me to experience many aspects of living aboard, that I couldn't get from rental boats. I can sail overnight, store my own stuff on board, experience, until I have the money to purchase a $30-60k boat. I am still employed an will be retiring in about 12 years. So, rest assured, I can pay for a starter boat... if that is your only concern with it.

[TrentePieds]

HARRISON:

I like your approach, and I should like to throw out some more “contrarian” thoughts for you to mull over.

Firstly, you are contemplating buying a boat for an amount that is less than the cost of butchering a superannuated boat and disposing of the carcass. This strategy compels you, IMO, to conduct yourself in a manner different from that dictated by the “conventional wisdom” that floats around forums such as this. To wit and e.g.: You will be told that to exercise prudence, you NEED a survey. Codswallop!! Why would you blow a grand of your scarce savings on an “overhead” (non-productive) expense on a boat for which you will write a cheque for a mere four grand??? That would not be what this retired accountant would call sound financial management. So what about “risk management”?

Here is how you achieve that: A member of this 'ere forum, a professional surveyor who is even less tolerant of BS than I am, was kind enuff, eons ago, to make this available to all forum members:

Marine Survey 101, Do your own marine survey

Get past your ASAs, since they are staring you in the face. Then print out Boatpoker's Survey 101 in hard-copy and sit down for two days and STUDY it. THEN, but not before, will you be ready to go look at boats with that four grand burning a hole in your pocket. You can always come back here for elucidation if any is required. Use the print-out as a checklist/duncelist as you look at each candidate boat. Then choose according to your fancy and the willingness of the seller to give you what YOU consider a fair deal. Just what make of boat you wind up with will be rather immaterial because at this stage of your development a) you won't really be able to tell what the behavioral differences twixt boats are, and b) you will adapt to any boat's idiosyncrasies.

Now you won't need a surveyor for what you want to do. Now you ARE the surveyor :-)!

You ask specifically what “frozen snot” means. The term is/was common parlance on the Vancouver waterfront for “GRP” (Glass Reinforced Plastics [English English]) or “fiberglass” [American English]. It was originally meant to be a derisive term, but for me it is a term of admiration. As one of our members puts it: ”Wooden boats are on life support from the moment they are launched. Fiberglass boats have to be ASSASSINATED!” There is a great deal of truth in that, and for the purposes that YOU want a boat AT THE P[RESENT TIME, a forty or fifty year old “frozen snot” hull will serve just as well as a ten year old one, or even a brand new one. And fiscally, it will serve FAR better than either :-)! What goes ON the hull and IN the hull must be considered in isolation from the consideration of the hull itself – as you will learn from Boatpoker's treatise :-) So don't fall between chairs! Go for the oldest, cheapest you can find – PROVIDED that your own survey of her sez that she is sound.

You responded to someone saying that the Islander you cited didn't have an anchor slung on the pointy end. Again, think about that on the background of what YOU want to do with the boat, and what YOU can afford. I have not been able to determine from your posts whether you are man or woman. That is NOT a sexist remark. It is a pointer to a reality: You should not go to sea without SUITABLE ground tackle, tackle that you are physically strong enuff to handle when the wind blows. So what, precisely IS suitable ground tackle? That depends on where you sail, and on how big a woos you are. And on your skill as a weather forecaster. For me, in TP, in MY waters, it is a 33lb Bruce anchor on 80 feet of 5/16” chain and 300 feet of nylon rode. Pretty minimal! Yet it would probably meet your requirements too. So let me tell you that in 20 knots of wind with a slop coming into the anchorage from the open sea, weighing manually, unassisted by mechanical means, this walking antiquity can still do it – but only just, and only by applying quite intemperate language. And at some risk to my hands. If you are a 110-pound woman (like many I've taught to sail) you probably could not do it.

The mechanical means in TP's case is a Lofrans vertical capstan. Very pretty, but a pain in the butt, and very expensive. Call it three'n'ahalf grand to replace, i.e. basically the same amount you intend to spend on the whole boat! The deeky little deck switches are also very pretty – and very fragile. But in marketing to yotties, “pretty” beats “seamanlike” hands down - every time :-)!

But we can come back to ground tackle at some more appropriate time.

Oh – engines! The Islander you cited has a “kicker” - a transom hung outboard motor. Perfectly adequate for getting a 27-footer in and out of marinas. They have their quirks and they demand a certain approach to boat handling that differs from that required by boats with engines. But given what you want the boat for, IMO a kicker is the only way to fly :-)

Well – that'll prolly do for a Sunday morning :-)

Keep us posted!

TP

[WingRyder]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

HARRISON:

I like your approach, and I should like to throw out some more “contrarian” thoughts for you to mull over.

Firstly, you are contemplating buying a boat for an amount that is less than the cost of butchering a superannuated boat and disposing of the carcass. This strategy compels you, IMO, to conduct yourself in a manner different from that dictated by the “conventional wisdom” that floats around forums such as this. To wit and e.g.: You will be told that to exercise prudence, you NEED a survey. Codswallop!! Why would you blow a grand of your scarce savings on an “overhead” (non-productive) expense on a boat for which you will write a cheque for a mere four grand??? That would not be what this retired accountant would call sound financial management. So what about “risk management”?

Here is how you achieve that: A member of this 'ere forum, a professional surveyor who is even less tolerant of BS than I am, was kind enuff, eons ago, to make this available to all forum members:

Marine Survey 101, Do your own marine survey

Get past your ASAs, since they are staring you in the face. Then print out Boatpoker's Survey 101 in hard-copy and sit down for two days and STUDY it. THEN, but not before, will you be ready to go look at boats with that four grand burning a hole in your pocket. You can always come back here for elucidation if any is required. Use the print-out as a checklist/duncelist as you look at each candidate boat. Then choose according to your fancy and the willingness of the seller to give you what YOU consider a fair deal. Just what make of boat you wind up with will be rather immaterial because at this stage of your development a) you won't really be able to tell what the behavioral differences twixt boats are, and b) you will adapt to any boat's idiosyncrasies.

Now you won't need a surveyor for what you want to do. Now you ARE the surveyor :-)!

You ask specifically what “frozen snot” means. The term is/was common parlance on the Vancouver waterfront for “GRP” (Glass Reinforced Plastics [English English]) or “fiberglass” [American English]. It was originally meant to be a derisive term, but for me it is a term of admiration. As one of our members puts it: ”Wooden boats are on life support from the moment they are launched. Fiberglass boats have to be ASSASSINATED!” There is a great deal of truth in that, and for the purposes that YOU want a boat AT THE P[RESENT TIME, a forty or fifty year old “frozen snot” hull will serve just as well as a ten year old one, or even a brand new one. And fiscally, it will serve FAR better than either :-)! What goes ON the hull and IN the hull must be considered in isolation from the consideration of the hull itself – as you will learn from Boatpoker's treatise :-) So don't fall between chairs! Go for the oldest, cheapest you can find – PROVIDED that your own survey of her sez that she is sound.

You responded to someone saying that the Islander you cited didn't have an anchor slung on the pointy end. Again, think about that on the background of what YOU want to do with the boat, and what YOU can afford. I have not been able to determine from your posts whether you are man or woman. That is NOT a sexist remark. It is a pointer to a reality: You should not go to sea without SUITABLE ground tackle, tackle that you are physically strong enuff to handle when the wind blows. So what, precisely IS suitable ground tackle? That depends on where you sail, and on how big a woos you are. And on your skill as a weather forecaster. For me, in TP, in MY waters, it is a 33lb Bruce anchor on 80 feet of 5/16” chain and 300 feet of nylon rode. Pretty minimal! Yet it would probably meet your requirements too. So let me tell you that in 20 knots of wind with a slop coming into the anchorage from the open sea, weighing manually, unassisted by mechanical means, this walking antiquity can still do it – but only just, and only by applying quite intemperate language. And at some risk to my hands. If you are a 110-pound woman (like many I've taught to sail) you probably could not do it.

The mechanical means in TP's case is a Lofrans vertical capstan. Very pretty, but a pain in the butt, and very expensive. Call it three'n'ahalf grand to replace, i.e. basically the same amount you intend to spend on the whole boat! The deeky little deck switches are also very pretty – and very fragile. But in marketing to yotties, “pretty” beats “seamanlike” hands down - every time :-)!

But we can come back to ground tackle at some more appropriate time.

Oh – engines! The Islander you cited has a “kicker” - a transom hung outboard motor. Perfectly adequate for getting a 27-footer in and out of marinas. They have their quirks and they demand a certain approach to boat handling that differs from that required by boats with engines. But given what you want the boat for, IMO a kicker is the only way to fly :-)

Well – that'll prolly do for a Sunday morning :-)

Keep us posted!

TP

TP, TLDR;

HA HA! Just Kidding!

Awesome post TP!!! I appreciate your expertise as an accountant, a yachtsman, and your common sense approach to things!

First off, I now LOVE the term "frozen snot boat" (FSB) lol. It makes perfect sense, and had I dwelled on it a bit more, I could have probably figured it out!

Yes, I am a Dude, who just turned 55 a few days ago.

I have been hinting, in my posts that I plan to do my own survey... I guess I was too chicken to outright admit it to you all. I have been researching this process on the innerwebs, specifically focused on hull and rigging (the two biggest nightmares to fix!). I'm new to boats, but I am pretty good with mechanical things... Jack of all trades, master of nothing! I am also skeptical of people who dumped a bunch of money into the boat months before they are selling it! Especially when it appears that the money they spent to sell it, as much as the asking price! Also boats that have been owned for a year and reselling (that leaves the seller plausible deniability as to specific questions on the condition of the boat). Fresh paint and shoddy repair, is also a warning flag for me.

Oh and, as for that little Islander 29; When someone mentioned that it didn't have stantions and lifelines, I took a closer look... That boat has hardly ANY deck hardware AT ALL! 2 winches and only 3 cleats and 2 hand rails! No anchor, nothing! Perhaps it was designed that way, but it would cost me a fortune to put all the necessary hardware on it to comfortably solo it, starting with a furling genoa and anchor! There are no hand holds, forward of the shrouds, so hoisting a jib, under sail, would be, IMO, dangerous. It looks as if there is no mainsail under that cover, did they put the cover on the boom to 'imply' that it has a sail? The engine cowl has been spray painted (coverup?). The porthole in the head looks corroded and water damaged (red flag! considering all other 'suspect' issues). Seller claims "Restored" without mentioning ANY of the work done except for "FRESH PAINT". LOL. What does THAT mean? I am assuming this boat is meant to be flipped, not sailed. And their target, is someone just like me... who knows nothing about boats! There is a lot to a survey, especially of a larger vessel. I realize that! But since the systems on a 22-25 footer are fairly minimal, I don't think it's beyond my capacity. I could be wrong, but I'm willing to chance it!

Some bargaining chips for me is bad wiring and interior. I will probably replace all the 12v wiring anyway, and have the 110v inspected before use... just to know that it was done correctly (or at least to MY standards, lol). I look forward to a bit of woodworking/refit of the interior at my leisure anyway, but not a project boat.

THANKS! For the link to Marine Survey 101 BTW. I already started looking it over. Looks like a great read. As I said, I have been watching some surveyors on YT, as well as some DIY survey stuff. I am taking notes on what they are looking for. One of the links I provided a few posts back, is of a Rigging surveyor who also owns a rigging company. He is amazingly thorough, and he explains everything as he goes... very informative.

My ASA courses are coming up quickly and I am studying hard for that. I know the knots from another passion, bushcrafting! I bought some sailing rope from West Marine (it's still rope, because its not attached to a boat ), so that I can practice the 6 knots I'm required to know before class. My 101 & 103 courses are May 21 - 24. I will start looking for marinas and boats shortly thereafter. This is not only common sense to wait, but is good for me, it will allow me some time to research 22-28' boats and control my impulses. Until a few days ago, I hadn't considered a starter boat, but I am, thus far, pleased to find that it is totally doable for my budget! But I NEED to sail the damn thing often to make it pay off! BTW, Marina's on the east coast of Florida, are small, few, and far between! As are inlet accesses to the ocean! I may be doing a fair bit of lagoon sailing for a while. lol.

On the subject of outboards, I am much more comfortable with a sketchy outboard than a sketchy inboard... far cheaper and easier to repair if necessary. I don't want either to be 'sketchy', but rebuilds, low hours, and "like new" claims by boat sellers don't mean much, it seems, so I am anticipating engine problems no matter what the owner says. I could bring an outboard to my garage and fix it myself, with an inboard... not so much!

At any rate, I guess you caught me red-handed! I am planning to do my own survey, taking the proper equipment (i.e. Binocs, flashlight, multi-tool, camera/selfie stick, notepad, plastic tappy thingy, etc...), and do a reasonably thorough job... asking some questions of the seller, and looking for insurance surveys, maintenance records, etc... and beyond that, I'm taking my chances. Also, from what I understand, you are taking your chances with a professional surveyor anyway.

~Harrison.

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "...from what I understand, you are taking your chances with a professional surveyor anyway."

In recognition that "utmost good faith" is a seriously antiquated concept, I cleave to this maxim: If you employ a "professional" - be it lawyer, accountant, surveyor, property manager or anything else - you had best know as much or more about the particular problem at hand as does the "professional". Else you cannot direct, monitor and supervise him, and you leave yourself wide open to exploitation.

If you DO know as much as the professional, he is, as he should be, reduced to the status of an errand boy.

Cynical, I acknowledge, but there you have it ;-0)!

[WingRyder]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Quote: "...from what I understand, you are taking your chances with a professional surveyor anyway."

In recognition that "utmost good faith" is a seriously antiquated concept, I cleave to this maxim: If you employ a "professional" - be it lawyer, accountant, surveyor, property manager or anything else - you had best know as much or more about the particular problem at hand as does the "professional". Else you cannot direct, monitor and supervise him, and you leave yourself wide open to exploitation.

If you DO know as much as the professional, he is, as he should be, reduced to the status of an errand boy.

Cynical, I acknowledge, but there you have it ;-0)!

To that I will add. Noone has a move vested interest in that survey that the poor sap trusting that boat with his life!

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by janice142

I FORMERLY was one of those who considered Mac26 a toyboat only sold to unsuspecting masses who dreamed of boating. That was ten years ago! Since then BY FAR the largest number of boats under sail that I have seen by a wide margin are the MacGregor26's.

Those boats in particular are used and enjoyed. The spiffy Bluewater vessels mostly are in marinas and boatyards. When underway the iron Genny aka engine is running too.

It's the lightweight smaller boats that get used. Mine is just 23' and she's been home for over ten years. Seaweed is also used, often.

The Mac 26 is definitely a toy sailboat.

The rigging is actually smaller or about the same size as that which is on a Hobie 16 Beach Cat

But you are right in the fact that the smaller boats do get used more often than the larger Blue Water Sailboats

So why not simply buy a smaller Blue Water sailboat that you can and will use a lot than can also handle bad weather, groundings, and bad docking

Check for yourself and see which boat is actually a real boat

Mac 26:
MACGREGOR 26X sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

Bristol 24:
BRISTOL 24 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

Bristol 27:
BRISTOL 27 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

[Wayfarer1008]

Seeing all this about the Mac 26 power sailor I need to point out its both a sailboat and a powerboat but doesn't do either very well. Its a boat for people that have not quite made up their minds. If you want to sail buy a sailboat if you want to cruise under power pick up a trawler.

[john61ct]

I'd say a boat that

has the living space of an RV
can go 20 knots if lightly loaded
and still sails when that's desired

has earned a niche for itself, no matter how ugly or déclassé it is perceived.

Wouldn't want one myself but I don't assume all those owners out there just don't have a clue

[WingRyder]

UPDATE: I just got from Sarasota. I completed ASA 101 & 103. ... so now I know everything there is to know about sailing! Jk, lol. Actually I had a great time, learned a lot! A bit overwhelming at first, but I think I will get the hang of it with lots of practice.

I will be spending as much time as I can over the next several weeks looking for a boat and a place to keep it.