Suggestions for a pre-liveaboard boat.

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by WingRyder

BTW, that Islander 29 would be the high end of my immediate budget. I would have very little left over to do any immediate work on it.

Remember, thats just the ASKING price. There aren't that many people interested in buying 50 year old boats. An offer of HALF the asking price is not unreasonable, if done politely. Maybe the seller would like the idea of you and your son owning his boat.

And with your skills, maybe put a boat in your driveway and convert it to electric drive with remote control autohelm...that would be cool.

[_andi_]

... if you dig through the search of this forum, there was a member (broker) offering to run queries against some database to determine the actual prices boats go for.

And yeah, often the asking price is way higher than market value and often it takes owners a year or two to realize that. Always stay polite and say it's an awsome boat which you'd love to restore to top condition but you're tight on budget so the buying price must be low. You want to be the guy they call when they decide to finally get rid of the boat with a huge discount.

Ah, another book tip: Fatty Goodlander, Buy Outfit and Sail (and pretty much any other book after and including "chasing the horizon", the old ones are crap (even the author says so)).

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by WingRyder

Thank a bunch scout! I have been eyeing most of these boats. The ALBERG 30 is a new one though. Like I have said, I can immediately afford a boat in the $5000 range. If I were to push that to $6500, that would leave me no wiggle room. I would have to wait to perform any work needed.

I just wanted to echo the point that these are just asking prices. If your budget is $5,000 looking at boats listed at $10,000 is reasonable. Most sellers of boats that have been really well maintained & updated won't come down 50% but most will still come down some & sometimes a lot. When you're starting out the thing to do is to not get in a hurry & look at as many boats as possible. Don't be embarrassed about wasting the seller's time & remember, looking for a boat is one of the best parts of the process. The more you see the more you'll understand what's available at this price point & what you like or don't like. Absolutely buy the best quality boat in the best condition that you can afford. Fixer uppers take much more money & time to get right than you can imagine. Find a boat that was loved, not abused & ignored.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by WingRyder

So, my creative urge could use some focus and a goal anyway! Having a boat to tinker with would be an additional asset for me. Instead of wasting money building a bunch of stuff that is going to end up in the trash anyway, I could get creative in fixing up my boat... or at the minimum, keeping it running! lol. My little boy is 3 now, and I can't wait to expose him to sailing. I think he will love it! But it may be a while... I would like to build up some skills first. GOD! There is so much to learn beyond the basics, that it may take a while before I feel competent as a skipper!

BTW, that Islander 29 would be the high end of my immediate budget. I would have very little left over to do any immediate work on it. There are also some others I am looking at, a 25' Cape Dory, a 24' Bristol, a 28' Morgan Tiger Cub, etc... all look pretty livable, and [appear] well cared for... for a starter boat. The next tear down, are several Catalina 22's that seem sailable but need a little work. They are in the $2000-$2500 range. But some need to be moved to the ocean, as they are sitting in back yards or on inland lakes

There are so many benefits to starting out with the smallest boat that fits your needs that it is hard to list them, and it goes way behind simple cost of purchase and maintenance.

First, you'll enjoy learning to sail on a smaller boat. There is less boat to manage, with simpler systems, it's more responsive and easier to get into and out of a slip or on and off a dock. You don't have to worry about 10 tons of inertia or windage...bumping into things is actually bumping into things instead of crashing into things.

You'll use the boat more because it's easier to take out, to manage, and you'll be spending less time on maintenance.

And as far as learning to sail, smaller boats are more responsive to changes to all the controls, from sails to rudder etc and there is much greater "feel", particularly when it comes to sail trim. You'll develop a feel for the boat "slipping into the groove" of good trim and accelerating, which can be harder to feel on a bigger boat unless you have experience with it. Honestly, the absolute best boat to learn to sail in is a dinghy.

Also, learning to live with less space on a boat is always a good thing given that it's an exercise in priorities and space organization on whatever boat you're on. If you can make due on a 22' foot boat, you'll be better prepared when it comes to buying a larger boat to make an intelligent decision about what you actually need and/or want.

As for kids...definitely get competent with handling the boat before you take your kid out. Nothing will put a kid off of sailing faster than trauma and an anxious parent turning every outing on the boat into the wrong kind of adventure. If you're enjoying yourself and are comfortable, your kid will feel secure and be able to focus on the adventure instead of being anxious.

[drakes]

That Bristol 24 might be one to look at

It is a great design. I owned one and sailed it up and down both coasts of Florida and in the Keys. Live the board it up for about a year. Very seaworthy.

There is also a great Owners Group that will help you if you have questions about the boat. If it is that red one with the diesel in it I think that one has been taken to the Bahamas also and the guy took pretty good care of it if I remember right

[TrentePieds]

Wingryder:

Why so much agonizing over something so simple :-)?

The little Islander 29 you found on CraigsList (or any similar boat of similar vintage) is just about ideal for for what you seem to want to do. For these reasons:

1) There is NOTHING to it's "systems" - it won't have many of them, except a bilge pump and a water pump for the potable water. The one you refer to has NO ENGINE, and therefore none of the associated hassles. Great for a totally green novice :-)!

2) The boat is as bare and as scraped inside as it is out. Nothing to go soggy and mouldy. If the inside gets damp and musty, just wipe it all down with a strong solution of vinegar in water. GREAT for an occasional "liveaboard"

3) The sailplan is ANTIQUE!!! Aboslutely lovely for a beginner. Very tractable and really, really easy to learn ON, and FROM! Cheap to keep in repair too.

4) Hull shape is ANTIQUE!!! Long keel with a cut away forefoot. What could be more tractable and forgiving for a novice helmsman? Tiller steered, transom-hung rudder. None of the unnecessary complications that go with wheel steering. A 29-foot boat ain't a Ram 350. You don't NEED wheel steering. In fact you don't want it. It just makes it more difficult to learn to be a good helmsman.

5) The boat is innocent of "electronics". You need only the bare minimum: a depth sounder. And even that is debatable. I'm happy with a lead-line, also knows as a "sounding lead"- a piecastring with a lumpa lead at the one end and knots to indicate the depths. What you can't do without is competence in what is called "pilotage" - navigating within sight of land, but you do that with paper charts and some very simple drafting instruments. You don't even need a "bearing compass" - I learned by just pointing the boats head at what I wanted a bearing on. Remember you are only moving at 4 knots or so most of the time. That is no more than a fast walking pace! If you get confused, you just stop and bob around like a cork till you figure things out. I still do that, fifty years later, when I get confused :-) Pilotage skills don't come with the boat. YOU bring them TO the boat.

So don't buy a bill of goods. Buy a cheapie "frozen snot" boat like the Islander you cite, and get on with the job. Then, when YOU can't get more from that particular boat, you can "pay it forward", via CraigsList, to the next dream-ridden novice ;-)!

All the best

TP

[Wayfarer1008]

For me I would look for a boat between 20 to 27 feet that has lots of support through racing fleets and group organizations. That means boats like Cal 20's which are a super boat for learning without spending much cash. On the longer end look for a Cal or Catalina 27 which is are borderline live aboard with good sea sailing characteristics.

[WingRyder]

Originally Posted by hamburking

Remember, thats just the ASKING price. There aren't that many people interested in buying 50 year old boats. An offer of HALF the asking price is not unreasonable, if done politely. Maybe the seller would like the idea of you and your son owning his boat.

And with your skills, maybe put a boat in your driveway and convert it to electric drive with remote control autohelm...that would be cool.

That is an excellent point, and I may expand my search criteria a bit higher in $$$ and see what I can find in the $8000 range. I had been thinking about 20% offer, 50% seemed unreasonable. But all the owner can do is say "NO" right? I am not very experienced at bargaining but I do have an absolute max of $5k that I can afford for initial purchase, I can work within that get a boat. I see there are several boat that the owner seems motivated to sell quickly.

As for electric drive, THAT would be out of my budget, but a DIY autopilot may be something to try... just for the halibut! lol. That may actually be doable!

https://youtu.be/-nA6wo9PXls

It's a bit beyond my skill level, for now but...

Thanks for the insight Hamburking!

[WingRyder]

Originally Posted by _andi_

... if you dig through the search of this forum, there was a member (broker) offering to run queries against some database to determine the actual prices boats go for.

And yeah, often the asking price is way higher than market value and often it takes owners a year or two to realize that. Always stay polite and say it's an awsome boat which you'd love to restore to top condition but you're tight on budget so the buying price must be low. You want to be the guy they call when they decide to finally get rid of the boat with a huge discount.

Ah, another book tip: Fatty Goodlander, Buy Outfit and Sail (and pretty much any other book after and including "chasing the horizon", the old ones are crap (even the author says so)).

Thanks again andi, As I told hamburking, bargaining isn't my strong suit, but I will have to suck it up in this case. I have about $7500 of disposable cash on hand, so I would set an upper limit for the purchase as $4-5k, and haggle within that margin. What I didn't realize (because I SUCK at bargaining), is to start at half the asking price! I don't know all those body language signals.

Would it be unreasonable to take a wad of cash, and present it saying I can take this boat NOW, for $xxx. I know this much, when I sold my motorcycle a couple of years ago, I had a FIRM asking price, but if someone had flashed me $10k in cash, I would have a tough time sticking to my $14k asking price!

I'm a pretty respectful person my nature (In my OWN humble opinion ), so being polite and respectful isn't a problem... and usually works against me in negotiations.

[WingRyder]

Originally Posted by Suijin

There are so many benefits to starting out with the smallest boat that fits your needs that it is hard to list them, [...]
... SNIP.
Also, learning to live with less space on a boat is always a good thing given that it's an exercise in priorities and space organization on whatever boat you're on. If you can make due on a 22' foot boat, you'll be better prepared when it comes to buying a larger boat to make an intelligent decision about what you actually need and/or want.

As for kids...definitely get competent with handling the boat before you take your kid out. Nothing will put a kid off of sailing faster than trauma and an anxious parent turning every outing on the boat into the wrong kind of adventure. If you're enjoying yourself and are comfortable, your kid will feel secure and be able to focus on the adventure instead of being anxious.

Suijin, Thank for you continual advice and assistance here, and on other whacky threads of mine.

The space for stuff, is one of my biggest concerns on a boat! I don't know why I'm obsessing over it, I lived in an 30' RV for 5 years, and we had plenty extra space. But, I guess because I want to take tools (not a garage full, but enough to work with). On my final live aboard, I plan on converting one aft berth into a storage locker and food pantry, and the v-berth into some sort of workspace. One of the unknown variables, for me, is how much room will I need for 'boat stuff' (i.e. life jackets, sails, spare/backup parts, etc.), and I think that is why I can't wrap my head around it. Indeed, having a smaller boat will help me understand that issue much better. And this issue is yet another reason I am choosing to go this route over renting!

I have a 3 year old, and by the time I get my [real] boat, he will be approaching 5, ... they literally grow up right before your eyes! He is taking swimming lessons now... but, at this age, they are more like anti-drowning lessons. lol. I don't want to put my boy in any danger, so I would certainly wait until I am fairly confident in my abilities, and the local area, before I take him with me. I will keep him lifejacketed and teathered to the boat at all times while sailing, of course.

Thanks again Suijin.

[WingRyder]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

I just wanted to echo the point that these are just asking prices. If your budget is $5,000 looking at boats listed at $10,000 is reasonable. Most sellers of boats that have been really well maintained & updated won't come down 50% but most will still come down some & sometimes a lot. When you're starting out the thing to do is to not get in a hurry & look at as many boats as possible. Don't be embarrassed about wasting the seller's time & remember, looking for a boat is one of the best parts of the process. The more you see the more you'll understand what's available at this price point & what you like or don't like. Absolutely buy the best quality boat in the best condition that you can afford. Fixer uppers take much more money & time to get right than you can imagine. Find a boat that was loved, not abused & ignored.

Thanks Scout! Now I feel a bit silly for dismissing your previous post listing boats to $10k. You understand the process better than I. I am going to have a fresh look at Craigslist, when I get back home later.

Thanks this post, as well as your earlier posts. Very helpful stuff!

[WingRyder]

Originally Posted by drakes

That Bristol 24 might be one to look at

It is a great design. I owned one and sailed it up and down both coasts of Florida and in the Keys. Live the board it up for about a year. Very seaworthy.

There is also a great Owners Group that will help you if you have questions about the boat. If it is that red one with the diesel in it I think that one has been taken to the Bahamas also and the guy took pretty good care of it if I remember right

Drakes, this is VERY useful info for me! For this is pretty much the expectation I have for using this boat! (Florida Atlantic coastal cruising, intercoastal lagoons with some primitive, remote overnights, and little Bahama banks area).

I am going to wait until after I have completed my sailing course (may21-24), and jump right into looking at boats. That Bristol is at the top of my list... if it is still available when I call. There will be others . I want to be patient and buy the right boat, even for my first one... it's all about learning the process... EVERY process.

Your post, with first hand knowledge of a specific boat is invaluable. I would love to hear more about your experience, and the ins-and-out of this boat... either here on you can PM me. I would love it if you would share you knowledge and experience of this boat and the florida coast!

OBTW, that goes for anyone, not just Drakes. Those of you who have sailed Florida, I would love some advice, as well as the good, the bad and the uglies of Florida shallow water sailing.

[WingRyder]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Wingryder:

Why so much agonizing over something so simple :-)?

The little Islander 29 you found on CraigsList (or any similar boat of similar vintage) is just about ideal for for what you seem to want to do. For these reasons:

1) There is NOTHING to it's "systems" - it won't have many of them, except a bilge pump and a water pump for the potable water. The one you refer to has NO ENGINE, and therefore none of the associated hassles. Great for a totally green novice :-)!

2) The boat is as bare and as scraped inside as it is out. Nothing to go soggy and mouldy. If the inside gets damp and musty, just wipe it all down with a strong solution of vinegar in water. GREAT for an occasional "liveaboard"

3) The sailplan is ANTIQUE!!! Aboslutely lovely for a beginner. Very tractable and really, really easy to learn ON, and FROM! Cheap to keep in repair too.

4) Hull shape is ANTIQUE!!! Long keel with a cut away forefoot. What could be more tractable and forgiving for a novice helmsman? Tiller steered, transom-hung rudder. None of the unnecessary complications that go with wheel steering. A 29-foot boat ain't a Ram 350. You don't NEED wheel steering. In fact you don't want it. It just makes it more difficult to learn to be a good helmsman.

5) The boat is innocent of "electronics". You need only the bare minimum: a depth sounder. And even that is debatable. I'm happy with a lead-line, also knows as a "sounding lead"- a piecastring with a lumpa lead at the one end and knots to indicate the depths. What you can't do without is competence in what is called "pilotage" - navigating within sight of land, but you do that with paper charts and some very simple drafting instruments. You don't even need a "bearing compass" - I learned by just pointing the boats head at what I wanted a bearing on. Remember you are only moving at 4 knots or so most of the time. That is no more than a fast walking pace! If you get confused, you just stop and bob around like a cork till you figure things out. I still do that, fifty years later, when I get confused :-) Pilotage skills don't come with the boat. YOU bring them TO the boat.

So don't buy a bill of goods. Buy a cheapie "frozen snot" boat like the Islander you cite, and get on with the job. Then, when YOU can't get more from that particular boat, you can "pay it forward", via CraigsList, to the next dream-ridden novice ;-)!

All the best

TP

TP, WOW! Great post. Thanks. First off, let me say that I'm not exactly stressing the decision, in fact it will be a couple of weeks before I make my 'immediate' purchase. I want to wait until I, at least, complete my 101 & 103 sailing courses ... Which is good, if anything, I'd say I'm too impulsive. I will have enough time to narrow down the field and go look at a few boats before I lays mah monies down! One thing pointed out earlier, was that Islander doesn't have stantions or lifelines, a negative, considering I will be spending a lot of time sailing with my little boy.

I do like that Islander, but there is also a Bristol, A couple of Morgans and numerous Catalinas that I also like. I am also pondering getting a less expensive boat, with good hull and rigging, and doing a mini refit! I want something that is sailable, but may need some work. I WANT the experience of fixing it!

I agree with you! I don't want to get bogged down with electronics gizmos, but I WOULD like to have a marine radio, AIS and epirbs for safety reasons. But chart plotters gps and such are way too expensive, and for my purposes, and the NAVONICS app on my ipad should suffice... when I get that far.

I DO like the simplicity aspect as well. Although, NO engine, is pushing it a bit for me. I will definitely want an engine. I think I will like a tiller as well, I see several advantages to a tiller over a wheel... though I've seen some folks on YT that have trouble adjusting to a wheel later, on a bigger boat... in docking maneuvers where they got really jammed up! lol. The cost of a complete rewire and plumbing wouldn't kill me if I need to do that!

Another unforeseen benefit to having an 'antique' first boat, is that it is breaking down my paradigm of wanting a more contemporary boat for my liveaboard, later. I hadn't considered boats older than 15 - 20yrs, because I didn't want to start out with a "project boat". ANYTHING I buy, I will want in sailable condition at purchase. But looking for a little boat has shown me that there are some amazing deals on older boats in good condition as well!... and for much cheaper than getting say a 2004 Beneteau 38'.

Rest assured, that I am NOT "agonizing" over the decision, I am looking forward to it! I am on this forum to learn! Thinking out loud with the experienced folks here, is very helpful to me. The longer this thread goes on, the more I learn! I am sharing my uninformed thoughts with the group, and hoping folks can steer me in the right direction. This whole thread, and my decision to purchase a starter boat in the first place, was based on lurking another thread started by another noobie!

Thanks for your help TP.

~Harrison.

PS, What does "frozen snot" mean... I think I like that term!

[WingRyder]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer1008

For me I would look for a boat between 20 to 27 feet that has lots of support through racing fleets and group organizations. That means boats like Cal 20's which are a super boat for learning without spending much cash. On the longer end look for a Cal or Catalina 27 which is are borderline live aboard with good sea sailing characteristics.

Thanks Wayfarer. Who makes "Cal" boats anyway. I haven't been able to find it on Sailboatdata.com! There are several of them listed and I like to see the diagrams, especially the floorplans! It helps to organize the unlabeled photos into a cohesive image in my head.

[hpeer]

I’m just skipping to the end so excuse me if this has been covered. A broker will usually set up a surveyor. Not always a good idea. I like having an independent broker.

I highly recommend Ed Rowe. He is on the East coast near Vero but will travel a bit.
https://www.absolutelyeverythingabou...rd-d-rowe-iii/

I bought my first boat for the same reason, looked at rental costs and figured I would buy.

We bought our big boat and lived on her off and on for several years before retirement and casting off for cruising. That worked well for us. We aclimated to the space and had some stuff worked out dockside first.