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double u · 15-12-2020, 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by FionaJC

...

Its no harder to sail than a bermuda rig...

...careful there...!

double u · 15-12-2020, 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Walk around a marina , count boats built in the last 20 years that have ketch rigs , I think you’ll get the point fast enough

& look at the boats at the "bluewater-crossroads" like Panama or the Marquesas...

Achernome · 15-12-2020, 08:46

We sail a 48 foot Olin Stevens Designed Ketch. For the past 10 years we have cruised up and down the East coast, Bahamas and Florida. Our air clearance is 63 ft with antennas. I have owned three cruising boats prior to the Sunward, 2 sloops and one Cutter (IP-35). The cutter rig on the IP 35 was great but on a larger boat the mast height would kill the use of the ICW.

All in all, the ketch has proven to be an excellent rig for us oldsters. We don't do upwind if at all possible and then we use the iron jenny. The balance and ability to "reef" just by dropping the main is wonderful. The old girl goes like a bat in 15+ knots of wind with a code zero. At 25 knots she's still as stable as a rock under working sails. The autopilot hardly works when the mizzen is trimmed for balance (not necessarily efficiency). We've sailed her for 24 hours from Cape May to Block Island in 35+ knots of wind on the starboard quarter under Staysail and Mizzen. She was well behaved enough to allow us to sleep well. It is a large mizzen (240 sq ft , 22% of total) and easy to reef from the center cockpit. The main has a very short foot and only adds 375 Sq Ft.

I know the 365. My sister-in-law's father had one. It sailed well, better than mine to windward, but the mast in the cockpit was a pain. I wouldn't recommend the rig unless you have either a center cockpit or a large enough vessel to get the mast out of the cockpit. Of course if you plan on using the ICW, 64' is the limit for mast height and the Ketch rig chops off a significant number feet from the main mast height.

Sails are also easier to handle getting them off and on the boat. I can barely move my mainsail as is. If it were a sloop rig I would be completely helpless. Sailing a ketch is as easy as a sloop. Many times we don't even set the mizzen. Other times we don't raise the Main.

The mizzen mast makes an ideal place to mount the Radar Dome as it doesn't interfere with the Staysail or Jib when tacking. It is great as a cargo boom for loading the outboard from the dinghy, Flying the Flag (2/3rds of the way up the topping lift when underway) . It mounts spare antennas, in our case, a wind generator. With our the wind Generator you can fly a mizzen staysail similar to a code zero or Asymmetrical (I haven't tried this). If you are not set up with a triadic stay, your mizzen will be fee standing and independent of the mainmast rigging. You can hope a lightning strike that takes out your main will not affect the mizzen. I did say "Hope". We have a sun awning that we set up over the mizzen boom to enjoy the afterdeck and get some sun protection when at anchor in hot climes.

The jibs are much more problematic. We had self tacking on the IP-35 that we loved and a Staysail on the Sunward that is more difficult to deal with since it lacks the self tacking. The biggest problem with a double headsail vessel is tacking the Genoa. We moved down from a 150% to a 130% Genoa now and it still hangs up going through "the slot". We have to roller furl it more than half way to tack and then let it out again. An electric winch on the furler helps this manoever but it is still a pain in the neck.

Good luck with your search. Don't be afraid of Ketches. It is not called "the lazy man's rig" for nothing. This is probably our last boat as we are getting old but if we ever got another one it would be a ketch rig.

MicHughV · 15-12-2020, 09:02

next time any of y'all see a yawl in profile....take a good look at the mizzen placement....true it will behind the rudder post.....but it will most importantly be behind the aforementioned perpendicular line...

dfelsent · 15-12-2020, 09:23

I too took exception to several definitions posed here. Many are ambiguous.
So I dove down the rabbit hole and ran into a rather deep philosophical discussion.

https://oxford.universitypressschola...298-chapter-13

“If you see a ketch sailing by and your companion says “Look at that handsome yawl,” you may be faced with a problem of interpretation. One natural possibility is that your friend has mistaken a ketch for a yawl, and has formed a false belief. But if his vision is good and his line of sight favourable it is even more plausible that he does not use the word yawl quite as you do, and has made no mistake about the position of the jigger on the passing yacht.”

Davidson uses the rudderpost by the way.

MicHughV · 15-12-2020, 09:54

I can't think of a more qualified sailor to define the placement of the mizzen mast on a yawl, than Don Street, he of " Iolaire" fame, his venerable 46' engineless yawl, check with him.....he had that boat for over 50 years.....knew a thing or two about yawls...

Jamesiv1 · 15-12-2020, 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Achernome

We sail a 48 foot Olin Stevens Designed Ketch. For the past 10 years we have cruised up and down the East coast, Bahamas and Florida. Our air clearance is 63 ft with antennas. I have owned three cruising boats prior to the Sunward, 2 sloops and one Cutter (IP-35). The cutter rig on the IP 35 was great but on a larger boat the mast height would kill the use of the ICW.

All in all, the ketch has proven to be an excellent rig for us oldsters. We don't do upwind if at all possible and then we use the iron jenny. The balance and ability to "reef" just by dropping the main is wonderful. The old girl goes like a bat in 15+ knots of wind with a code zero. At 25 knots she's still as stable as a rock under working sails. The autopilot hardly works when the mizzen is trimmed for balance (not necessarily efficiency). We've sailed her for 24 hours from Cape May to Block Island in 35+ knots of wind on the starboard quarter under Staysail and Mizzen. She was well behaved enough to allow us to sleep well. It is a large mizzen (240 sq ft , 22% of total) and easy to reef from the center cockpit. The main has a very short foot and only adds 375 Sq Ft.

I know the 365. My sister-in-law's father had one. It sailed well, better than mine to windward, but the mast in the cockpit was a pain. I wouldn't recommend the rig unless you have either a center cockpit or a large enough vessel to get the mast out of the cockpit. Of course if you plan on using the ICW, 64' is the limit for mast height and the Ketch rig chops off a significant number feet from the main mast height.

Sails are also easier to handle getting them off and on the boat. I can barely move my mainsail as is. If it were a sloop rig I would be completely helpless. Sailing a ketch is as easy as a sloop. Many times we don't even set the mizzen. Other times we don't raise the Main.

The mizzen mast makes an ideal place to mount the Radar Dome as it doesn't interfere with the Staysail or Jib when tacking. It is great as a cargo boom for loading the outboard from the dinghy, Flying the Flag (2/3rds of the way up the topping lift when underway) . It mounts spare antennas, in our case, a wind generator. With our the wind Generator you can fly a mizzen staysail similar to a code zero or Asymmetrical (I haven't tried this). If you are not set up with a triadic stay, your mizzen will be fee standing and independent of the mainmast rigging. You can hope a lightning strike that takes out your main will not affect the mizzen. I did say "Hope". We have a sun awning that we set up over the mizzen boom to enjoy the afterdeck and get some sun protection when at anchor in hot climes.

The jibs are much more problematic. We had self tacking on the IP-35 that we loved and a Staysail on the Sunward that is more difficult to deal with since it lacks the self tacking. The biggest problem with a double headsail vessel is tacking the Genoa. We moved down from a 150% to a 130% Genoa now and it still hangs up going through "the slot". We have to roller furl it more than half way to tack and then let it out again. An electric winch on the furler helps this manoever but it is still a pain in the neck.

Good luck with your search. Don't be afraid of Ketches. It is not called "the lazy man's rig" for nothing. This is probably our last boat as we are getting old but if we ever got another one it would be a ketch rig.

Thank you @Achernome for this thoughtful post.

Mike Burch · 15-12-2020, 16:00

On my Victor 40 I found the mizzen mast very useful to hang the radar (antenna and reflector) on, and the mizzen boom as a crane for hoisting the gas bottles on board.

Hoisting the mizzen sail usually put the boat out of balance, and thereby slowed her down.

**boatman61** · 15-12-2020, 16:27

Seem to remember a New Zealand ketch whupping every sloop in the fleet in a round the world race.. not bad for a poor design..

**boatman61** · 15-12-2020, 16:58

The Mighty Steinlager 2 and Peter Blake..
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?v...og29m1T3%252Bg

mwaugh · 15-12-2020, 17:49

I grew up sailing a ketch. Nothing hard or much different about sailing them. If you put the mizzen up then you just do the same thing to the mizzen as you do to the main - normally right after you've done it to the main :-) (I'm sure those looking for every tenth of speed would differ).

We would also often sail with jib/genoa and mizzen leaving the main down - which in the right wind conditions was a very suitable setup.

dfelsent · 15-12-2020, 18:49

So my Moonbeam is a ketch. Wonderfully easy to sail short handed. The mizzen is awesome when dropping sail, hoisting sail, anchoring, or mooring. Helps us go faster too.
A mizzen keeps your bow from blowing off when heading upwind to anchor or moor.
99% of the time I hoist the mizzen before leaving the mooring or anchor. Then the main and the jib when out of the harbor, unless I’m sailing right off.
Returning its head down to shade the jib with the main, furl the jib. Head upwind with mizzen in hard. Autopilot set, drop the main into the gallows and lazy jacks.
Then start the engine, head for the harbor. When on the mooring or on the hook securely drop the mizzen.
When I bought her I was looking for a split rig for the reasons many posters have mentioned.
A ketch is ever so slightly more complicated to sail and has a few more bits to maintain.
But I’m really pleased with the compromise between ease of handling, maintenance, and comfort.

Seabeau · 16-12-2020, 04:28

On my Ketch rigged, true centerboarder, I can self-steer using just the mizzen and or the centerboard. When the wind pipes up, the main goes down and I'm all about using the "Jib and Jigger(mizzen)" balanced combination.