Should I consider a ketch as a first boat?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Happ

Having sailed both I prefer a sloop. Purely because I don’t have to take the cover off and raise another sail..

Thats exactly why I like a ketch.. I rarely have to take the cover off the main..

[jockster1059]

Hi there,


I have a lot of time for the ketch/yawl rig. It's highly versatile in strong winds: a furled jib and a mizzen, with or without a reefed mainsail, is a beautifully balanced setup when reaching. And much less stress on the rig. The downside is more standing rigging plus an extra sail, but it's a small sail and lighter rigging, so not a deal breaker. We have just re-rigged our 85 year old 40' yawl with dyneema... very happy

[MicHughV]

I sailed a ketch for 12 years or so.....loved it !! It's a very versatile rig. It makes for very easy sails to manage and gives you many options in different wind conditions.

On top of everything else, a ketch looks cool !!!.....way cooler than a sloop...what more can you ask ??

[Darin Cape Cod]

Originally Posted by Mickeyrouse

As a split-rig sailor (a yawl) for 25 years I subscribe to two-masted sailing. I would like to note the difference between yawls and ketches...

Wow, thanks for taking the time to explain all that in detail. I had been wondering about many of those things. Best, Darin

[capnorv]

Originally Posted by flightlead404

Ah, I had not even considered this. This could be the deal killer.

I have 500 watts of solar mounted on the rails, a full enclosure on the cockpit, which could be broken down to a bimini if that's your choice. I cruise in the 40s and 50s latitudes so the extra protection is appreciated. Granted my boats a 45', a little longer, but...

[pilott]

While I agree with most of mickeyrouse's excellent post, I believe that his definition of a ketch vs a yawl isnt totally correct. A yawl has the mizzen mast located aft of the rudder , not the helm

Also, theres some generalities being bandied around regarding mainsails & masts being smaller on ketches. On the HR Rasmus ketch, the mainmast & mainsail are, afaik, identical to the sloop version. The only difference is that the mainmast on the ketch is located about 2ft forward vs the sloop.

[Mickeyrouse]

In a pure world, it is true that while pilott’s comment about the definition of a yawl being a two masted sailboat in which the mizzen is found aft the rudder, as a practical matter the casual observer cannot discern the exact location of the rudder, it being under water and thus not often visible. Since the helm IS visible, I’ll stick with that, especially since in most cases it probably still works anyway. And I can only imagine trying to explain to certain yawl sailors that they have been sailing a ketch Lo these many years.
I believe there are other attributes of yawl versus ketch, though this being about boats such observations are less than stone-engraved. In just about every ketch I have studied( from afar, to be sure) it seems that in the total of the sail area of main and mizzen, the ketch mizzen represents a greater percentage of the total than the mizzen of a yawl. Also ( in our yawl, to be sure) a yawl’s mizzen mast is often situated at a greater distance from the end of the main boom than in most ketches I have seen. I can note departures from this observation, though. I do believe in just about every ketch I have seen the mizzen mast is taller in proportion to the main mast than on yawls. Research on these topics may of course reveal alternate facts, but that is what my unscientific observations tell me.
In sailing, I expect that, all other things held constant (ha!) the ketch may have a slight edge on a yawl, at least on a beam reach.
I am reminded of a quote by the old radio commentator and Saturday Review writer John Ciardi: “ Always strive to be correct. But do not strive to be so correct as to be mis-understood.”

[Perfect Ride]

Ketch is a great rig. See if you can do an extended sea trial... ? I soloed a 56' ketch for several years and loved it. Not sure I could have soloed a 56' sloop with the same ease.

[goboatingnow]

Walk around a marina , count boats built in the last 20 years that have ketch rigs , I think you’ll get the point fast enough

[MicHughV]

let me clear this up for everybody....

a yawl is a boat that has it's mizzen mast aft of a perpendicular line, where the stern overhang exits the water. The steering wheel location has nothing to do with it, though logically, it is positioned in front of the mizzen...but could be anywhere in front of the mizzen...

the mizzen boom of a yawl typically hangs over the stern.

there.....that's it...memorize it !!!

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

let me clear this up for everybody....

a yawl is a boat that has it's mizzen mast aft of a perpendicular line, where the stern overhang exits the water. The steering wheel location has nothing to do with it, though logically, it is positioned in front of the mizzen...but could be anywhere in front of the mizzen...

the mizzen boom of a yawl typically hangs over the stern.

there.....that's it...memorize it !!!

Hold yer horses there

There is some dispute

The Oxford dictionary
“A two-masted fore-and-aft-rigged sailing boat with the mizzenmast stepped far aft so that the mizzen boom overhangs the stern”

collins dictionary

“a two-masted sailing vessel, rigged fore-and-aft, with a large mainmast and a small mizzenmast stepped aft of the rudderpost”


For me the latter definition was the accepted one, ie aft of the rudder post , not one definition mentions “ stern overhangs “

For what it’s worth most definitions agree with Collins

Here’s Wikipedia

“As a rig, a yawl is a two masted, fore and aft rigged sailing vessel with the mizzen mast positioned abaft (behind) the rudder stock, or in some instances, very close to the rudder stock.”

The free dictionary
“
1. A two-masted fore-and-aft-rigged sailing vessel similar to the ketch but having a smaller jigger- or mizzenmast stepped abaft the rudder.”

Webster’s sits on the fence being vague

“: a fore-and-aft rigged sailboat carrying a mainsail and one or more jibs with a mizzenmast far aft
“

Memorise that as the fellow says ...

[MicHughV]

I am familiar with most definitions of a mizzen location on a yawl.....the one I mention is the most logical "verbal" description...is it behind the rudder....off course....behind the steering wheel....off course, considering most steering wheels are located in front of a rudder.....and factoring in where the helmsman would need to stand...

In the years I've been sailing, I've always given a yawl a close look, so as to satisfy myself, that the definition I stated is good....actually...it's not my definition....I can't remember here I heard or saw it...but in all cases, the mizzen was clearly behind a perpendicular line drawn from where the stern overhang exits the water...

The mizzen mast placement came about on a yawl...as I recall....for your basic sailing yacht...as a rule breaker under then handicap ratings....as that sail area, small as it was, was not counted in the overall square footage.

It's rare to see a Yawl these days. Most all are vintage boats, so it's all kinda moot.

Here in the south, the issue is further complicated, when you hear " Y'all come and see that Yawl sailing there"....

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

I am familiar with most definitions of a mizzen location on a yawl.....the one I mention is the most logical "verbal" description...is it behind the rudder....off course....behind the steering wheel....off course, considering most steering wheels are located in front of a rudder.....and factoring in where the helmsman would need to stand...

In the years I've been sailing, I've always given a yawl a close look, so as to satisfy myself, that the definition I stated is good....actually...it's not my definition....I can't remember here I heard or saw it...but in all cases, the mizzen was clearly behind a perpendicular line drawn from where the stern overhang exits the water...

The mizzen mast placement came about on a yawl...as I recall....for your basic sailing yacht...as a rule breaker under then handicap ratings....as that sail area, small as it was, was not counted in the overall square footage.

It's rare to see a Yawl these days. Most all are vintage boats, so it's all kinda moot.

Here in the south, the issue is further complicated, when you hear " Y'all come and see that Yawl sailing there"....

Wriggle all you want , I have never seen the definition you suggest We “ memorise “

The accepted definition is “aft of the rudder post” , not the rudder or the wheel. The stern form is irelevant

That’s the key “ aft of the rudder post “ , forward of the post is a ketch

[MicHughV]

nope, no wriggling required, I will stick with my definition.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

nope, no wriggling required, I will stick with my definition.

That’s fine simply don’t ask the rest of us to memorise your personal confusion