Rugged High Latitude Boats?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by frederic_b

. . . BTW -- I have a side question.
We've initiated the build-process of a 'high latitude compliant boat' -- mean as much compliant as possible, despite some unconventional choices (I know this is a very demanding conversational place).

We do plan to spend a few years in the north of Norway, Iceland, some Greenland, some Patagonia etc, incuding wintering in confort onboard ... BUT we plan as well some less harsh conditions as well along the planned ownership of the boat.
And given the investment, both in building/debuging time and money, I'm unsure we'll want to change the boat when we sail from Patagonia to the Marquises, for instance.
So the question is : how specialized should a 'high latitude compliant boat' be ? (that's for the previous "does it all good at nothing comment" .... demanding place :-)

I think we would all love to hear about your build in as much detail as you care to share.


As to your question -- I think it depends on how hard core the boat is. Many high latitude guys, including some who have posted in this thread, want the boat to be capable of dealing with heavy sea ice and even overwintering in or on the ice. So they have long shallow keels and fully protected props. And maybe ultra-heavy construction. I think this is not compatible with good sailing qualities for lower latitudes. You end up with basically a heavy motor sailer.



I have been thinking about this, and as my dreams of building a new high latitude boat have been put off due to the economic crisis, I have started to think that it would be cheaper and easier to have TWO boats -- keep my Moody for non-Arctic sailing and buy some kind of old heavy alu or even steel motor sailer to keep in Iceland or someplace, for the high latitudes. Something with a big engine and Hundested prop and huge tankage. Maybe even code it and run some high latitude charters. Iceland would be a fantastic base for this as you have nearly half of all the cool places in the Arctic within 1000 or at least 1500 miles.



Alternatively, if you want one boat to do everything, then you will have to give up ultimate capabilities for dealing with ice, which I think are impossible to achieve if you have a deep bulb keel and good performance rudder. Maybe a retractable keel gets you some ways to that; maybe a retractable shaft and prop could be made to work; I don't know. But what about the rudder? Of course sailing high latitudes doesn't necessarily mean you have to go into heavy sea ice. I was a real chicken about ice when I was in Greenland -- in my plastic, bulb-keel boat -- and just turned around when the ice started to get thick. It did not ruin the cruise at all; just meant we could not be nearly so adventurous.

[frederic_b]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

(...) generous opening hatch area.

Regarding this specific topic in the very cold, what would you recommend? We’re going for double glazed windows for a large living space, but the yard would only propose the standard smaller hatches / windows.

Regarding isolation as a very versatile topic, I couldn’t agree more. We plan very thick isolation for floorings and above sea level (75 to over 100mm).

[frederic_b]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I think we would all love to hear about your build in as much detail as you care to share.

Well, I'll try to share most relevant items. As the actual building is only due in 14 month, due du yard leadtime, we're in the detailed specif stage (I'm spending a lot of time on electric systems and heating these days). Apart from the aluminium core design, most of it can still be customized.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Many high latitude guys, including some who have posted in this thread, want the boat to be capable of dealing with heavy sea ice and even overwintering in or on the ice.

Yes, I undestood this. If France we already have one Jean-Louis Etienne, he's great, i'm not sure another one is needed.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

(... been put off due to the economic crisis

Hum ... talk about right timing ... commited just one month before the world went South, so I hope the boat will take us there when the time comes :-)

Originally Posted by Dockhead

(...) you will have to give up ultimate capabilities for dealing with ice (...) It did not ruin the cruise at all; just meant we could not be nearly so adventurous.

I had a hunch it would be the case, thks for confirming this.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by frederic_b

the yard would only propose the standard smaller hatches / windows

We went for custom made hatches, primarily to provide long term reliable water seals. I hate leaking hatches and all the commercial hatches have multiple potential weak spots that eventually end up dripping seawater onto bedding . Our clear hatches (some are solid aluminium) use glass rather than plastic lenses for long term clear and scratch free performance even with the high UV found in the tropics. They also incorporate some insulation and security features. As well, we added small tie down points welded to the deck at all four corners of each hatch. These can be used to secure insulated storm covers to the outside of the hatch. In the tropics the same points can be used to secure wind scoops.

This is an expensive solution. A simpler way is to have provision in the hatch frame to install a second layer below the hatch lens. This can be a removable insulating layer (as simple as bubble wrap) or some clear perspex that creates pseudo double glazing. This mounting system can be used in the tropics to hold a fly screen.

[frederic_b]

Thks to you guys, having resumed reading cold-places sailing stories, I found this one quite interesting, as it shows a scientific approach to heating a boat in extreme conditions.

igloo : the passive igloo project

[frederic_b]

Wow ... We thought we had things under control, and then, suddenly, this happens !

Originally Posted by noelex 77

We went for custom made hatches

Bomar custom designed of Lewmar custom ?
Would you share references here pls?

[dannc]

Seal was mentioned in an earlier post. She is a Good Hope 56, built with aluminum, and has a swing keel, designed by Chuck Payne and Ed Joy, https://www.edjoydesign.com/good-hope-56.

• LOA: 56'-2"
  
• LWL: 47'-4"
  
• Beam: 15'-10"
  
• Draft (keel up): 3'-2"
  
• Draft (keel down): 8'-9"
  
• Displacement: 55,000lb
  
• Ballast: 21,460lb
  
• Fuel: 507gal
  
• Water: 258gal
  
• Engine: John Deere 4045TFM 135HP@2500RPM

There is also a Good Hope 65, https://www.edjoydesign.com/good-hope-65:

• LOA: 65'-3"
  
• LWL: 54'-9"
  
• Beam: 17'-6"
  
• Draft (keel up): 3'-5"
  
• Draft (keel down): 9'-6"
  
• Displacement: 75,425lb
  
• Ballast: 27,000lb
  
• Sail Area(IJPE): 1899sq ft
  
• Fuel: 755gal
  
• Water: 405gal
  
• Engine: John Deere 4045AFM 180HP@2400RPM

Several Good Hope 56 boats have been built in CA and South Africa. One is being built right now at KM. We really wanted to see the boat at the April Open Day but the virus prevented the trip.

Seal was the first Good Hope 56 built for/by the owners who skippered on Pelagic for years. The hull was done at Kanter and the owners finished building. Here details are here, https://www.expeditionsail.com/contacts/sailboat-seal.htm.

Later,
Dan

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by frederic_b

Bomar custom designed of Lewmar custom ?
Would you share references here pls?

They were designed and manufactured by the boatbuilder (KM Yachtbuilders). These photos may give you some idea. The first image is a glazed (glass not plastic) hatch from the outside. You can see the tiedown points for an insulated cover (alternatively windscoop or storm cover) on the four outside corners. The second photo is one of the solid aluminium hatches from the inside.

You can see the four stainless steel handles or dogs that together with the rigid structure ensure a high clamping force on the seal. The handles and hinges are welded to the frame so there is no outside penetration to leak. The photo also shows the removable stainless steel security bars on the inside. These allow the hatch to be left open for ventilation and cooling when leaving the boat, while still maintaining some security.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

They were designed and manufactured by the boatbuilder (KM Yachtbuilders). These photos may give you some idea. The first image is a glazed (glass not plastic) hatch from the outside. You can see the tiedown points for an insulated cover (alternatively windscoop or storm cover) on the four outside corners. The second photo is one of the solid aluminium hatches from the inside.

You can see the four stainless steel handles or dogs that together with the rigid structure ensure a high clamping force on the seal. The handles and hinges are welded to the frame so there is no outside penetration to leak. The photo also shows the removable stainless steel security bars on the inside. These allow the hatch to be left open for ventilation and cooling when leaving the boat, while still maintaining some security.

Gorgeous!!

[northwestsailor]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

They were designed and manufactured by the boatbuilder (KM Yachtbuilders). These photos may give you some idea. The first image is a glazed (glass not plastic) hatch from the outside. You can see the tiedown points for an insulated cover (alternatively windscoop or storm cover) on the four outside corners. The second photo is one of the solid aluminium hatches from the inside.

You can see the four stainless steel handles or dogs that together with the rigid structure ensure a high clamping force on the seal. The handles and hinges are welded to the frame so there is no outside penetration to leak. The photo also shows the removable stainless steel security bars on the inside. These allow the hatch to be left open for ventilation and cooling when leaving the boat, while still maintaining some security.

Very envious of your hatches. All our hatches are the offshore French standard at the time. To solve the issue of boarding waves getting past the seals 100 mm fences were welded around three sides of each hatch. It is a pain walking around the deck especially at night but is very effective in keeping the boat dry in the worst of conditions.

[TeddieBear]

Another one not yet mentioned in this thread : https://www.enduro54.com

[Erik de Jong]

Originally Posted by TeddieBear

Another one not yet mentioned in this thread : https://www.enduro54.com

Looks like a cool boat. Is there actually one under construction already?

I personally think that boats with twin rudders (and twin props as well) are totally unsuitable for operating in icy waters, but not high latitudes are full of ice.

[barnakiel]

Renderings, renderings.


But then we discover the devil is in the details (mostly in our choice of the boatyard that build ours).


I have seen here a similar concept, but in a smaller envelope:


https://www.kmy.nl/yachts/frangipani/


This one actually exists and sails.


You are spoiled for choice if you want something similar - French and Dutch boats are built like this quite often.


b.

[TeddieBear]

Don't really know as i just discovered this boat on another forum. I like it too.

Apparently the rudders are retractable, not usual with twin rudders

[Erik de Jong]

Originally Posted by TeddieBear

Don't really know as i just discovered this boat on another forum. I like it too.

Apparently the rudders are retractable, not usual with twin rudders

Making the rudders retract also means that you can't use them to steer the boat. It is when you're maneuvering in ice that the twin rudders and twin propellers are a problem as they catch ice.