Replace GPS with Tablet + software

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

So let me show how that works on iSailor; when you create a waypoint, it is just a symbol on the map, but you can enter/edit coordinates so you have 100% precision. On the first screendump you see the little red flags which are waypoints. Then there is the route: you can not add these waypoints to your route, but you can move them on top of them, or you can enter their names and coordinates instead of doing that for the waypoints. The reason I do it like this: the waypoints are the ones from the paper Explorer Charts for the Bahamas. But I don’t always follow them. In this case a megayacht was anchored right in the channel so I went around. I also do shortcuts etc. Then I can erase the route but keep these waypoints permanent.
In the 2nd screendump you see the attributes of route waypoints. I use the turn radius to have the autopilot make pretty turns allowing me to trim sails etc. It’s pretty spiff.

iSailor is based on the commercial Transas charts which is the main (Russian) competition for CMap.

From what I see iSailor is far better than Navionics.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by wingssail

From what I see iSailor is far better than Navionics.

Possibly, but iSailor charges for every individual feature. Navionics provides basic features for a much lower cost. It just depends on what kind of features you want from an app.

And one quirky iSailor ‘feature’ really annoys me - you can’t see across 180 degrees - you have to go all the way around the world to scroll from one side or the other.

But seriously, your earlier comment about navigation app preferences determining who’s a less capable navigator? BS

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

iSailor is based on the commercial Transas charts which is the main (Russian) competition for CMap.

Transas iSailor support now comes from Wartsila, Finnish, headquartered in Helsinki.

-Chris

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Possibly, but iSailor charges for every individual feature. Navionics provides basic features for a much lower cost. It just depends on what kind of features you want from an app.

And one quirky iSailor ‘feature’ really annoys me - you can’t see across 180 degrees - you have to go all the way around the world to scroll from one side or the other.

But seriously, your earlier comment about navigation app preferences determining who’s a less capable navigator? BS

If there are critical missing navigation functions, functions which affect safety, and you either don't know about them or don't care, then that informs me about your navigation.

If you wish to respond then I'll describe one or more scenarios which should shake up your complacency about Navionics.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Transas iSailor support now comes from Wartsila, Finnish, headquartered in Helsinki.

-Chris

Yes, they acquired the product and it worries me as they act more commercial like by removing lifelong free chart updates but the customer base has acted and they seem to understand. The app works good, may be even 100% so nobody is waiting for fixes or anything.

It is the best option available and it’s better than my Furuno Navnet 3D plotter.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by wingssail

If there are critical missing navigation functions, functions which affect safety, and you either don't know about them or don't care, then that informs me about your navigation.



If you wish to respond then I'll describe one or more scenarios which should shake up your complacency about Navionics.

If you want to use an app as a replacement for a primary dedicated chart plotter then the full feature list matter. I’m very interested in what you consider critical features.

If you use an app as a secondary display unit and continue to use a chart plotter as the primary electronic navigation tool then I don’t see the problem of using a simpler and more user friendly app such as Navionics in that way. Doesn’t show AIS? On the plotter. Marks are a PITA to place accurately? Refer to your plotter. And so on.

Again, you’re equating app selection as a proxy for navigation ability. That’s silly. In the same way, one could equally argue that anyone who uses any electronic navigation tool as their primary navigation source, whether app or plotter, is a deficient navigator and lesser human being. Is that your point?

In the real world, does it make a difference? And I’m not talking about some mythical noob with too much money and too little sense buying a boat and following the sales person’s instructions on how the boat icon on the plotter represents their location, just like Google Maps and their car.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

It is the best option available and it’s better than my Furuno Navnet 3D plotter.

Hmmm.... We haven't worked with iSailor extensively yet, but my first impressions are that it's not appreciably better than a couple of the other apps I've tried.... and not at all better than our NN3D plotter.

OTOH, our usage pattern is pretty lightweight... don't really bother much with waypoints or routes, given our local geography...

-Chris

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Hmmm.... We haven't worked with iSailor extensively yet, but my first impressions are that it's not appreciably better than a couple of the other apps I've tried.... and not at all better than our NN3D plotter.

OTOH, our usage pattern is pretty lightweight... don't really bother much with waypoints or routes, given our local geography...

-Chris

Name something the NN3D does better? (don’t say radar )

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by fxykty

If you want to use an app as a replacement for a primary dedicated chart plotter then the full feature list matter. I’m very interested in what you consider critical features.

If you use an app as a secondary display unit and continue to use a chart plotter as the primary electronic navigation tool then I don’t see the problem of using a simpler and more user friendly app such as Navionics in that way. Doesn’t show AIS? On the plotter. Marks are a PITA to place accurately? Refer to your plotter. And so on.

Again, you’re equating app selection as a proxy for navigation ability. That’s silly. In the same way, one could equally argue that anyone who uses any electronic navigation tool as their primary navigation source, whether app or plotter, is a deficient navigator and lesser human being. Is that your point?

In the real world, does it make a difference? And I’m not talking about some mythical noob with too much money and too little sense buying a boat and following the sales person’s instructions on how the boat icon on the plotter represents their location, just like Google Maps and their car.

Again, you’re equating app selection as a proxy for navigation ability. That’s silly.
Well, It's pretty clear I've bothered a lot of folks by saying that if someone's idea of navigation is what they can do on an ipad with navionics, they aren't really being good navigators, OK then, I apologize. I agree you cannot tell if a person is a good navigator or not by their choice of tools.

And yes, If you want to use an app as a replacement for a primary dedicated chart plotter then the full feature list matter.

That is my point, because that is what some commenters advocate.

Look, I do a seminar about navigation failures due to bad route planning. It has five recent examples of cruising yachts wrecked or seriously damaged and in every case (based on their own accounts and some based on personal interviews) it was clear that lots of people have gotten complacent about navigating. My point is that you need to take it seriously and good tools and good practices are critical.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Again, you’re equating app selection as a proxy for navigation ability. That’s silly.

Well, It's pretty clear I've bothered a lot of folks by saying that if someone's idea of navigation is what they can do on an ipad with navionics, they aren't really being good navigators, OK then, I apologize. I agree you cannot tell if a person is a good navigator or not by their choice of tools.



And yes, If you want to use an app as a replacement for a primary dedicated chart plotter then the full feature list matter.



That is my point, because that is what some commenters advocate.



Look, I do a seminar about navigation failures due to bad route planning. It has five recent examples of cruising yachts wrecked or seriously damaged and in every case (based on their own accounts and some based on personal interviews) it was clear that lots of people have gotten complacent about navigating. My point is that you need to take it seriously and good tools and good practices are critical.

Now you’re making sense, thanks. Can you please provide a list of the critical features that a navigation app should have?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Now you’re making sense, thanks. Can you please provide a list of the critical features that a navigation app should have?

Yes, I can do that. It'll have to wait for a couple of days, I'm on passage right now, my internet connection is dodgy and besides, I'm either on watch or sleeping so I shouldn't be down here typing on cruiser's forum, but trust me, I'll get it to you.

[s/v Jedi]

It should at least be possible to enter coordinates for waypoints, objects etc.

[daveNZ]

Barnakiel, thanks for the earlier offer! Not really necessary but hey! I was just aware of the grief some forum members seem to cause each other! Moving on....

I previously wrote a list of features comparing iSailor and Navionics (I use both). See thread “iSailor or Navionics, or?” Post #32

Here’s a couple of show stoppers for me:
1. try ‘course up’ in Navionics, the chart rotates, but so do the labels!! (raster issue?)
2. You can’t display an earlier track, while recording a new one.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Name something the NN3D does better? (don’t say radar )

Consider, this is (our) installation specific, and we don't have wireless integration:

NN3D is easier to see (larger, brighter screen), easier to resize (while I'm more focused on piloting), easier to see two charts at once...

Displays depth and AIS targets on the same screen...

And it works with our AP...

I'm also influenced by familiarity; I (much) more often use raster charts, anyway... and C-Map vector charts a bit... and the Transas vector charts, still new to me, look a little weird. I'll likely get used to that if I keep working with it...

-Chris

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Consider, this is (our) installation specific, and we don't have wireless integration:

NN3D is easier to see (larger, brighter screen), easier to resize (while I'm more focused on piloting), easier to see two charts at once...

Displays depth and AIS targets on the same screen...

And it works with our AP...

I'm also influenced by familiarity; I (much) more often use raster charts, anyway... and C-Map vector charts a bit... and the Transas vector charts, still new to me, look a little weird. I'll likely get used to that if I keep working with it...

-Chris

Yes the screen brightness is a good point. But the rest.... resizing is not just much easier but also a magnitude faster on the iPad. With vector charts you don’t need to display two, iSailor does display AIS targets and depth on the same screen and does work with your AP (same NMEA sentences). The real problem is that you need full NMEA data on wifi. Easy fix with the Yacht Devices bridge for N2K or STNG but they also have a 0183 product that does the same

I agree on familiarity with maps. I always preferred the vector maps from Cmap and Transas because they look the same for every region and show/hide details depending on zoom level.