Inspecting a used boat with inboard engine

[hamburking]

I agree, its pretty nasty to start an engine on the hard in the winter. However, if you can pull the water intake hose, and put it in a bucket of water, that would work. When you are done, quickly shift the hose to a jug of antifreeze, then another, and another to be sure the antifreeze is not diluted in the engine.

While starting and running the engine will tell you a lot, there is still more to the story...for instance does it overheat, does it have power under load, and what about the transmission?

Better than testing the engine, test the owner. Do you trust him? Does he say its good? Is he being vague? I've bought several boats without a sea trial or starting the engine. Some needed a bit of engine work, but overall the owners were truthful.

In your price range you can't really have a lot of conditions...it is what it is. If there's a problem, you should be able to see it. Trust your gut.

It might help if you could tell us your location...hey, if its nearby to me I'll go check it out with you!!! Or tell us the model of boat and you can get feedback specific to that model. For instance, I had a C&C27 with a yanmar 2gm. Great engine, but transmission prone to clutch slippage.

[crowdcruise]

Have bought many boats over the last 30 years from jet skis to 30 foot cruiser. I would not buy any boat that I have not seen operate in the water "under load" which means put her through a sea trial. This is easy. Make your written contract contingent on the boat performing satisfactorily under varying loads (rpms) in the water. If the motor runs under load for 30 mins and you don't see warning signs such as suspicious noises, smokes, alarms, leaks, or overheating - you are 90% okay in my opinion, with the motor. Good luck.

[crowdcruise]

Let me add that there are many motors that run fine on land or on the trailer, but present issues when run under load. Running on land is only about %60 as effective as running it under load. You can still sign the contract to buy it, just it isn't finalized until you see it run under load. Thanks and good luck!

[Teknishn]

BigJim, I purchased my little 81 Hunter 27 online last year without having seen the boat. Pics online showed a well maintained boat. Contacted the owner who was quite forthcoming with details of the boat and sent maintenance receipts for the Yanmar 1GM plus videos (under sail, motoring, interior walkthrough). Asking price was $7500 but the owner knocked off $1K in order to buy a new main sail and maybe a used autopilot. So for $6500 I am seeing a lovely boat that appears to be well maintained. Sounded too good to be true.

As I am currently living overseas and couldn't go kick the tires, I had the boat surveyed. Cost about $720 which included launching the boat and returning it to the hard afterwards. No sea trials were conducted but the engine was put under load in both forward and reverse while pierside and the surveyor provided a video of the engine testing showing RPM's and engine temps as well as additional photos of the boat and problem areas. IMHO, that was money well spent

Received the survey report and purchased the boat. The survey provided a list of items that need to be addressed (nothing major). With that being said, a surveyor's report is not the end-all/be-all of boat inspections. The surveyor indicated areas that need to be addressed in the future. As I work on boats and yachts for a living I am sure that there will be much more that will find that needs to be done when I finally get onboard in a few weeks....and am planning as such. I'll see how my own adventure turns out at that time. Patience has been key in my decision to purchase the boat.

If you are located 3.5 hours away from the boat, go kick the tires. If the boat "sings to you" (Boats, like dogs, pick their owners...not the other way around like most folks think), then arrange to have a survey done when the weather allows for in-water testing. As others have already said, the boat probably isn't going anywhere any time soon. Good Luck!

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by crowdcruise

Have bought many boats over the last 30 years from jet skis to 30 foot cruiser. I would not buy any boat that I have not seen operate in the water "under load" which means put her through a sea trial. This is easy. Make your written contract contingent on the boat performing satisfactorily under varying loads (rpms) in the water. If the motor runs under load for 30 mins and you don't see warning signs such as suspicious noises, smokes, alarms, leaks, or overheating - you are 90% okay in my opinion, with the motor. Good luck.

I've bought and sailed 8 sailboats, so far. Not one of them had a survey or a sea trial. most were bought on the hard, and 3 of them sight unseen.

Just trying to balance the feedback here.

While you are writing contracts and such, someone else might offer a little less, and walk away with your boat.

Life is a gamble. If you want guarantees, warranties, and assurances, then sailing and sailboats are not the place to look.

[siamese]

I'm in Michigan, with a winterized boat on the hard.

If my boat was for sale, would I run the engine for a legitimate buyer? Given the warm spell we're having right now, ABSOLUTELY.

My conditions would be as follows:
- the buyer is satisfied with all other aspects of the boat - only the engine is in question

- we have a simple, written purchase agreement, with price agreed upon

- I have a 15% deposit in my hands

- the purchase agreement states that if the engine runs, he buys the boat

- if it doesn't run, we tear up the agreement

I'm lazy, but if I really want to sell the boat, all I have to do is hook up the batteries, and turn the key. It runs, and he buys. Re-winterizing for the rest of the season is on him, but all that really has to be done is to run a few gallons of the pink anti-freeze through it. Big deal.

Without a written agreement, and a solid deposit in my wallet, NO WAY, not a chance.

Should you get a professional survey? I would on that boat. Confession: I bought a 1996 Catalina three years ago without a survey. Had only 200 hours on the engine, fresh water Michigan boat, single owner (older lady who seldom used the boat), interior was truly like new (she said she hardly used the cabin), galley never used, etc.. And, I've owned boats for 40 years and do 99% of my maintenance. I can report that I'm having fewer problems with this boat than I had with my NEW Catalina 309.

Whether you get a survey has less to do with the value of the boat than what the boat could cost you. There are things that could be wrong with the boat that could reduce it's value to little or nothing, and then you get bled by storage costs.

[Teknishn]

Originally Posted by siamese

Whether you get a survey has less to do with the value of the boat than what the boat could cost you. There are things that could be wrong with the boat that could reduce it's value to little or nothing, and then you get bled by storage costs.

Eyes wide open, Eyes wide open.

I know a lot, but am continually surprised to find out how much I DON'T KNOW.

[Bigjim]

FYI, I looked at the boat on Saturday. appick lives nearby and came and gave me a hand.

The boat is a Cal 27 Mk III. It's in pretty good shape for a boat of it's age. Needs some deep cleaning and a bulkhead replaced where some water got in and rotted out a bit of it. The engine "looks" good.

I made an offer contingent on an engine and electrical system test. Did not hear back on the offer.

My thanks to everyone on their contributions. They were very helpful and enlightening. I'll let you all know if I hear back, one way or the other.

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by Bigjim

The boat is a Cal 27 Mk III. It's in pretty good shape for a boat of it's age.

Hey, cool....I once bought a Cal 25 online, sight unseen. Had been neglected on the hard for 5 years. Asking price was $12,000...I got it for $1,000. The local mechanic charged me $100 to get the engine running, plus a new battery and fresh fuel, then it ran flawlessly ever after. I spent an hour or 2 or 5 every day after work cleaning, sanding, and painting for about 3 weeks...it was THAT dirty. But overall it was a great boat. IMHO, the older Cal boats were well built, with the exception being the plywood cored deck. That 25 was particularly fast on a reach as well...the flat bottom (and modified fin keel) was great for speed.

If you haven't heard back from the seller, he's likely calling everyone else who showed interest in the boat hoping to get a better offer before accepting yours. Or you just pissed him off. I hope you let us know what happens...its quite exciting...you might have bought your boat!!!!

[Bigjim]

Originally Posted by hamburking

Hey, cool....I once bought a Cal 25 online, sight unseen. Had been neglected on the hard for 5 years. Asking price was $12,000...I got it for $1,000.

Ha. I had a chance at something like that back when I was in my 20s. There was big storm in Chicago, and a bunch of boats broke free of their cans in Monroe harbor. One of the boats was stored at the same yard where I had my O'Day Mariner. It had been driven against the sea wall and pounded on the concrete until about 3 feet of the bow broke off. The owner pulled the boat out and abandoned it at the boatyard. I think it was an Irwin or Coronado, around 25-27 feet. Cute boat before it was chewed up.

I fell in love with it and came several times to gawk at it. I put an offer on it and the boatyard which had not been paid for several years contacted the owner one last time. Otherwise they would claim it for costs and sell it to me.

The owner must have gotten the bug back. He turned down my offer and paid off his storage bill and that's the last I heard of it. I'll always think of that boat as the one that got away.

[Bigjim]

Originally Posted by hamburking

If you haven't heard back from the seller, he's likely calling everyone else who showed interest in the boat hoping to get a better offer before accepting yours. Or you just pissed him off. I hope you let us know what happens...its quite exciting...you might have bought your boat!!!!

There is one rotten bulkhead on one chain plate. The fiberglass under the traveller will have to be cut away and completely replaced. To me, anything above the waterline is easy stuff, other than the engine. I'm not a diesel mechanic and don't want to drop a few thousand on repairing or replacing an inboard as soon as I buy a boat. Obviously, if I got a boat for $1,000, there's a lot of budget left over.

A 30 year old boat is going to come with some cracks and blemishes. I'm totally expecting that and more. I just really like the layout of the Cal more than most in the same length and category. I'm 6'5" and none of the 25-27 boats are close to accommodating me without a pop-top.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Bigjim

...... I'm not a diesel mechanic and don't want to drop a few thousand on repairing or replacing an inboard as soon as I buy a boat. ...........

You say you are good with gas engines so I say you will soon be good with diesel engines. They aren't really that different and you will soon pick up the important things

Especially small boat inboards; they are all very basic - think 60's gas engine type of basic.

Tell us what make / model it is and you get a ton of advice on CF - some of it is even good

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by Bigjim

.......
But what's the best way to check the state of the engine? It's winter here.

#1 Is it appropriate to have them simply turn it over? Start it? Hook up a water hose to run it for a few minutes? Then, does any water used need to flushed out with antifreeze or will it simply drain out of the engine naturally? It will be 60 degrees this weekend, but it could freeze again before April. How far should this marina go to sell this boat?

#2 What's the best way to check the electrical system?

#3 I've looked at two boats in the last week. Both had several inches of ice in the bilge. Is this a deal-breaker? Do I have to worry about the integrity of the hull. If you think this may happen and can't pump it out before it freezes, is it appropriate to simply pour a few gallons of RV anti-freeze into the bilge?

The boat is listed for less than $6000. Is it worth paying for a professional survey?

Thanks for any advice.

Being a surveyor myself, I would say that a full professional survey is not worth it in this case.
Engine: To check it properly, the boat should be in the water. It is a lot of hassle to run it on the hard especially if it was properly winterized.
You can make an offer that is subject to later engine check and put some part of the money in escrow as contingency.
If the seller is sure about engine being fine, he shouldn't object.
Electrics: connect battery/ies, shore power if installed and you can check everything that operates on electricity (including power to the engine starter).
Hull: you can check yourself - look for suspicious areas that look re-painted, check for stress cracks around deck fittings, look for cracks around keel base and where rudder is attached etc.
If you want to check keel humidity a simple humidity meter will cost couple of hundreds of US$ but maybe you can get one on a loan (you will need some info as to how to read the numbers).

[Bigjim]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Tell us what make / model it is and you get a ton of advice on CF - some of it is even good

The engine is a Yanmar 1GS. Lot's of the boats I looked at had gas engines. They all looked 30 years old. I've worked on gas engined for most of my life. And, I had a Mercury outboard on my last sailboat. It worked like a champ. Always started first pull and even spent some time under water when I turtled my O'Day. And then it started even after that.

I've read hundreds of stories about sailing all over the world and most lean toward diesel mainly because of the ignition system and long-term reliability: One less thing to go wrong. Obviously, after that, it's all maintenance (and some luck). On my Destroyer, we had never used our emergency diesel generator. So one day we had to light it off during an actual emergency and it started up like a charm and just at that moment the fire main above the engine burst and started spraying salt water all over the engine. The engine kept running while our damage control team shut off the main. Who knows what would have happened with a gas engine with distributor and spark plugs. I used to have a International Harvester truck that stalled as soon as the humidity got high.

As someone mentioned, there are no guarantees. You assess the odds and go with the best option. The boat needs a lot of work, but it seems the hull, mast and sails are in good shape. Luckily, we found the chain plate issue BEFORE it failed under stress.

I made what I thought was a fair offer considering all the issues with a bonus if he's willing to test the motor and electrical system. I'm willing to walk away if it's not acceptable.

[Bigjim]

Originally Posted by meirriba

Being a surveyor myself, I would say that a full professional survey is not worth it in this case...
Electrics: connect battery/ies, shore power if installed and you can check everything that operates on electricity (including power to the engine starter).
Hull: you can check yourself - look for suspicious areas that look re-painted, check for stress cracks around deck fittings, look for cracks around keel base and where rudder is attached etc.

If the asking price was higher, a full survey would be appropriate. I'm willing to eat any repairs other than the engine. I made a bonus offer if he's willing to test the engine and electrical system. The batteries were still in the boat but i could not tell whether they were hooked up. I didn't get any reactions from the electrical panel. The hull and keel look great. No cracks, no blemishes.

My experience is that people who talk too much without answering the question or who brag about how good they are, should not be trusted.

Some of the damage to the boat shows long-term abuse. A cracked deck under the traveler that's over a few feet long did not happen overnight. Especially, if you see dirt deep in the crack, it's been there for more than one season. This boat was sailed many times with that cracked deck. Something so important I would have fixed immediately. I probably would have fixed it even before trying to sell the boat.

I have a feeling that the owner gave up. They are exhausted and ready to buy a new boat or retire ashore. I will probably hear their response today.