Full keel vs fin keel for offshore?

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I can't speak of the majority, for I don't have access to that data. But Pete, there are cruisers who make offshore passages without a liferaft. For instance, there's us, the infamous Insatiables, who have made quite a few offshore passages, and who have never owned a raft. And IIRC, there's Evans and Beth who elected to not carry one, and they have been known to go offshore as well. And there are a few of our cruising acquaintances who similarly don't carry one.

I agree that many, likely the majority do carry them, but surely not all.

Jim

You have probably written your reasons before but I haven't seen them, can I ask for them again? I'm assuming three water tight bulkheads as something to do with it?

I remember reading Evans opinion.

[RedHerring]

Originally Posted by Pete7

In decades to come that is what budget cruisers will be sailing around the world in, some manky old Bavaria

Already happening. Early 90s Hunters and Beneteaus are a pretty common sight in the Sea of Cortez.

[Tidjian]

So all debating aside I think the overall answer to the thread topic was, the keel doesn't matter as much as other factors.

Full keels are suggested for less experienced sailors and are more forgiving of mistakes. They travel slower and point more difficultly. They don't windward well but have good directional stability in weather. Some boats are better in this category than others and it's really a matter of preference.

Fin keels are the more modern style and are designed for speed. They're just as capable as full keels but are less forgiving. They can easily spin out if not controlled in weather and the rutters are more vulnerable. Although it's uncommon keels can be torn off or cause major issues if grounded or in a collision. Bolt on keels are less favorable since bolts tend to degrade over time.

More important factors than the style of keel is the design of the boat. Structural stability, age, condition, storage, cockpit size, displacement, etc.

Just thought I would reiterate what all has been argued in case anyone else stumbles in here for the same answers.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by RedHerring

Already happening. Early 90s Hunters and Beneteaus are a pretty common sight in the Sea of Cortez.

Sea of Cortez is coastal sailing and thats how 95% of those boats got there certainly not enroute around the world.

[Seabeau]

Trick question? Right? Its not the wind that's so dangerous to boats, its the water. No fixed keel boat of any sort is as safe in breaking water as a boat with retractable underwater appendages, i.e. centerboard, dagger board, lifting keel etc., etc...

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by RedHerring

Already happening. Early 90s Hunters and Beneteaus are a pretty common sight in the Sea of Cortez.

This side of the pond too, not Bavaria's but small 1980s Maxi's. The French seem to love them because they are/were quick and cheap. This sort of thing:

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Tidjian

[B]
More important factors than the type of keel is the design of the boat. Structural stability, age, condition, storage, cockpit size, displacement, etc.

This ^^^^ is the most important bit IMHO.

[boatman61]

Its a question only a buyer can decide on..
The fantatist whose gonna outrun all the storms... and.. the realist who knows better..
Aside from that both are well capable of the task.. except the higher latitudes where a full keel would be my preference.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Tidjian

So all debating aside I think the overall answer to the thread topic was, the keel doesn't matter as much as other factors.

Full keels are suggested for less experienced sailors and are more forgiving of mistakes. They travel slower and point more difficultly. They don't windward well but have good directional stability in weather. Some boats are better in this category than others and it's really a matter of preference.

Fin keels are the more modern style and are designed for speed. They're just as capable as full keels but are less forgiving. They can easily spin out if not controlled in weather and the rutters are more vulnerable. Although it's uncommon keels can be torn off or cause major issues if grounded or in a collision. Bolt on keels are less favorable since bolts tend to degrade over time.

More important factors than the style of keel is the design of the boat. Structural stability, age, condition, storage, cockpit size, displacement, etc.

Just thought I would reiterate what all has been argued in case anyone else stumbles in here for the same answers.

The overall answer you should take away from this thread is people have their biases, they vary in their knowledge, experience, abilities and desires. Some have sailed thousands of nm's and some?

Any well built boat, be it full keel or bolt on keel, being sailed by half decent skipper will cross an ocean.

In the end its irrelevant, your pocket and what ever opportunity pops up will decide for you.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Tidjian

The only way I could see not carrying one would be if I literally couldn't afford it. New 6 man crafts with the hooded ceiling run about $1600. I don't think I'd need the insulated ones since water temps wouldn't be dramatically low. I have found 4 man without the roof for as low as $900 new. I'm unsure which is the better choice. I suppose even a dinghie is better than floating in just a jacket. I don't think I would go for a used life raft even if it hasn't been deployed. Seems like one of those items you're better buying new with proper inspection certification. I think the raft, PLB, vane system and either a drogue/sea anchor are at the top of my list as far as additional equipment goes. Not including any electronic navigation and etc.

You want to buy the smallest life raft that will accommodate the crew you have on board. If you expect to have four people on a passage, you want a four person life raft. The reason is that the bodies in a life raft are part of it's ballast and are important to it's stability. And a four person life raft with four people in it is very cramped (by design) and uncomfortable but that's the last thing you're going to complain about if you've deployed it.

I know delivery skippers who have bought used RIBs and painted them red or orange as opposed to leaving the dock with nothing at all. Again it's a matter of cost and risk. If life rafts were free it's almost a sure bet that everyone would carry one.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Suijin

You want to buy the smallest life raft that will accommodate the crew you have on board.

The op is (planning to) single hand, and I am not aware of a 1 person raft - does one (a decent design) exist?

To your point, they will usually be more stable with more on board, and/but they do/can capsize, even with max load on board in hurricane conditions, and then have to be re-righted (some interesting reading in the Bounty incident back-up materials).

For crewed yachts, even given the above, I personally would actually suggest getting a raft size with about 2x the expected crew size. I believe (have seen some data which suggests) the raft size is the 'maximum' and that they are 'sufficiently' ballasted (for storm conditions) with 1/2 that maximum, and that will be a hell of a lot more comfortable than a raft at maximum capacity.

As an aside, the frequency of sea sickness in rafts (ones deployed in anger) is extremely high, even among people who 'dont ever get seasick'. The people involved typically are under a lot of stress, and the motion is terrible (in big waves). If you have ever been in a raft in one of the pool exercises - then just imagine what it will be like with half the people vomiting - lol

As another aside, I almost always loose my glasses somewhere in those life raft pool exercises - like someones hand wipes them off my face as people fall into the raft or one of a number of other causes - I decided it was best to put them in a hard case in a zippered pocket before starting the exercises - just something to think about.

[Suijin]

The pool exercise...it truly makes you wonder how it is even possible to get into a life raft at all, much less in any thing more than a mild chop, lol.

And it's totally understandable that you'd get seasick almost instantly. It quickly becomes a steam room of epic humidity, and close it up and you have no frame of reference at all.

And nope, never heard of a one person life raft. At the SAS seminars they always drum "get the smallest one to fit your crew" into you, over and over. And while you might be "more comfortable" in a larger raft, you're also turned into human billiard balls in a raft larger than you need. That could be very uncomfortable too.

I will say when you cram into a 6 person raft with five other people, it's a serious "WTF" moment where you're wondering how you could stand it for 10 minutes much less 10 hours.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by Suijin

You want to buy the smallest life raft that will accommodate the crew you have on board. If you expect to have four people on a passage, you want a four person life raft. The reason is that the bodies in a life raft are part of it's ballast and are important to it's stability. And a four person life raft with four people in it is very cramped (by design) and uncomfortable but that's the last thing you're going to complain about if you've deployed it.

Well, we finally agree on something.

[Tidjian]

Originally Posted by Suijin

The pool exercise...it truly makes you wonder how it is even possible to get into a life raft at all, much less in any thing more than a mild chop, lol.

And it's totally understandable that you'd get seasick almost instantly. It quickly becomes a steam room of epic humidity, and close it up and you have no frame of reference at all.

And nope, never heard of a one person life raft. At the SAS seminars they always drum "get the smallest one to fit your crew" into you, over and over. And while you might be "more comfortable" in a larger raft, you're also turned into human billiard balls in a raft larger than you need. That could be very uncomfortable too.

I will say when you cram into a 6 person raft with five other people, it's a serious "WTF" moment where you're wondering how you could stand it for 10 minutes much less 10 hours.

It seems like the smallest I've found is a 4 man for $995. It looks very simple and maybe even a bit cheaply made. I'm probably more inclined to spend the extra for the hooded version with zipper canopy for $400 more. A 4 man should be sufficient for me. I'm not a small guy after all as I weigh about 280lbs. I almost count as two people in a sense. Add in any gear I might try to throw in if I'm able. I think it will be fine. Either way even if it capsized and I had to flip it over. It's better than dog paddling or floating about in a jacket. There's some small peace of mind having a surface and some walls around you in the open ocean. As I said before I'd rather not be stressing about which fish will take a bite out of my ass first. If I'm in a situation where I need to deploy it I'll have enough worries as it is lol.

[Paul Elliott]

Face it, a life raft is not a good solution. But, it's probably the best solution available should your boat sink or burn. Our job is to try as if our lives depended on it to keep those things from happening.