Fat bottomed girls

[Joli]

Here's Dragon on a closed course. They seem to be about the same pace as a J120? I'm not saying a class 40 isn't bloody quick reaching and broad reaching but around a closed course their just another 40 foot boat. And if you rate minus 15 you're not gonna wanna sail courses that don't favor your strength.

https://yachtscoring.com/emenu.cfm?eid=720

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by poiu

This picture of a Vendee Globe yacht seems to show what these hulls do:

Lot more than just a fat bottom hull at work there!
Don't think I'd sleep well on that cruising yacht.

[Whokickamoocow]

Originally Posted by Joli

Here's Dragon on a closed course. They seem to be about the same pace as a J120? I'm not saying a class 40 isn't bloody quick reaching and broad reaching but around a closed course their just another 40 foot boat. And if you rate minus 15 you're not gonna wanna sail courses that don't favor your strength.

https://yachtscoring.com/emenu.cfm?eid=720

Right.
So the evidence you present for the statement "We know some Class 40 sailors who won't race any races upwind. That says plenty about the upwind ability of the hull form" is actually you looking at a rating of a boat.
Got it.
Moving right along....

Fact based evidence actually shows a J will pants a Class 40 to windward in light airs. In heavier conditions a Class 40's righting moment starts paying dividends as the J needs rail weight and needs to downsize to keep the boat on her feet rather than optimal VMG.

I assume by the above you have not sailed on one. Let us know if you want to try and find out for yourself, we'll see if we can help you out. My cruiser's a Class 40 hull but with a cruising cabin layout and we go to windward just fine. So if you need some real world, factual information just reach out, more than happy to help cut through the innuendo and suppositions anytime.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by Whokickamoocow

Right.
So the evidence you present for the statement "We know some Class 40 sailors who won't race any races upwind. That says plenty about the upwind ability of the hull form" is actually you looking at a rating of a boat.
Got it.
Moving right along....

Fact based evidence actually shows a J will pants a Class 40 to windward in light airs. In heavier conditions a Class 40's righting moment starts paying dividends as the J needs rail weight and needs to downsize to keep the boat on her feet rather than optimal VMG.

I assume by the above you have not sailed on one. Let us know if you want to try and find out for yourself, we'll see if we can help you out. My cruiser's a Class 40 hull but with a cruising cabin layout and we go to windward just fine. So if you need some real world, factual information just reach out, more than happy to help cut through the innuendo and suppositions anytime.

Why would you race a Class 40 in an upwind race when you aren't as fast as boats you owe a minute a mile to? Nothing wrong with picking the races that are fun to sail for that type of boat and race formats you're competitive in. Hence my original comment.

I've been invited to sail on Class 40's but haven't had time, we're busy sailing or own boat. Our cruising boat owes time to Class 40's, so we're comfortable sailing at higher speeds. We sail away from them upwind, they sail away downwind. Pick the type of boat for the way you sail, one that fits your needs. We could order a new Pogo 50 tomorrow but it's not the right boat for us, it offers nothing we want.

[Whokickamoocow]

Originally Posted by Joli

Why would you race a Class 40 in an upwind race when you aren't as fast as boats you owe a minute a mile to? Nothing wrong with picking the races that are fun to sail for that type of boat and race formats you're competitive in. Hence my original comment.

I've been invited to sail on Class 40's but haven't had time, we're busy sailing or own boat. Our cruising boat owes time to Class 40's, so we're comfortable sailing at higher speeds. We sail away from them upwind, they sail away downwind. Pick the type of boat for the way you sail, one that fits your needs. We could order a new Pogo 50 tomorrow but it's not the right boat for us, it offers nothing we want.

So the only evidence for your statement.. "We know some Class 40 sailors who won't race any races upwind. That says plenty about the upwind ability of the hull form."
..is..
" I've been invited to sail on Class 40's but haven't had time"

I am glad that only took a few pages to tease out.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by Whokickamoocow

So the only evidence for your statement.. "We know some Class 40 sailors who won't race any races upwind. That says plenty about the upwind ability of the hull form."
..is..
" I've been invited to sail on Class 40's but haven't had time"

I am glad that only took a few pages to tease out.

You don't have to agree with my comments or opinion but you cannot deny closed course race results. Elapsed times indicate a Class 40 is slower then a J120 when having to sail upwind and downwind around a fixed course. We're not talking ratings we're talking elapsed times. That doesn't take away the fact that a Class 40 is blazing fast in their conditions which is reaching and broad reaching.

Sorry you're offended by fact.

[fc59]

Originally Posted by Joli

You don't have to agree with my comments or opinion but you cannot deny closed course race results. Elapsed times indicate a Class 40 is slower then a J120 when having to sail upwind and downwind around a fixed course. We're not talking ratings we're talking elapsed times. That doesn't take away the fact that a Class 40 is blazing fast in their conditions which is reaching and broad reaching.

Sorry you're offended by fact.

That NOT the impression I have reading this : https://www.rolexfastnetrace.com/fr/...resultats-2021

On the fastnet 2021, class 40 are about 1 day faster (3d 10h vs 4d 12h) than J/121, J/122, J/125. (j/120 did not finish the race). That about 25% faster overall.

Even on the upwind leq (to fastnet rock), 15 class 40 are faster than a XP-44, upwind machine 4 feet longer, 4th in upwind leg IRC class 1.

[Whokickamoocow]

Originally Posted by Joli

You don't have to agree with my comments or opinion but you cannot deny closed course race results. Elapsed times indicate a Class 40 is slower then a J120 when having to sail upwind and downwind around a fixed course. We're not talking ratings we're talking elapsed times. That doesn't take away the fact that a Class 40 is blazing fast in their conditions which is reaching and broad reaching.

Sorry you're offended by fact.

No apology necessary.
OK. So, if I understand it:
'We know some Class 40 sailors who won't race any races upwind';
...is now justified/evidenced/proven by...
"but you cannot deny closed course race results"
.
..
Got it. Actually, I don't get it. It sounds like a ratings debate now.
Thanks anyway.

[Giova]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

In general (not just boats), Italian design is about fashion over function....

But look at how your typical boat is used.
- Most are weekenders where hanging out in the marina represents the bulk of use.
- When they do go out, it's typically coastal cruising where they are getting from point A to B...they don't hesitate to crank up the diesel if conditions aren't ideal.
- Typically, burying the rail is not the fastest way to sail. Better to reef and keep the boat more upright.
- Big cockpits sell with the wife.

Old narrow beam deep draft boats, don't sell. Outside of custom/semicustom, you will be hard pressed to find a new one for sale.

If you have a PC is thanks to Italian design, if you have a radio is thanks to Italian design, if you have a battery is thanks to Italian design, if you have a parachute is thanks to Italian design ... should I go ahead

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Giova

If you have a PC is thanks to Italian design, if you have a radio is thanks to Italian design, if you have a battery is thanks to Italian design, if you have a parachute is thanks to Italian design ... should I go ahead

Apparently hit a nerve.

PCs are a USA invention with heavy Japanese influences.
Marconi only claimed to be the first and that was a century ago.
I don't own a parachute but if you are trying to reference DaVinci...try to move up to the current century...I mean the Roman's did a lot of cool stuff but a little disingenuous to claim their achievements as modern Italians.

Don't get me wrong I love Italy I wind up going there most years but I stand by my statement that they are very much focused on fashion.

[Giova]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Apparently hit a nerve.

PCs are a USA invention with heavy Japanese influences.
Marconi only claimed to be the first and that was a century ago.
I don't own a parachute but if you are trying to reference DaVinci...try to move up to the current century...I mean the Roman's did a lot of cool stuff but a little disingenuous to claim their achievements as modern Italians.

Don't get me wrong I love Italy I wind up going there most years but I stand by my statement that they are very much focused on fashion.

Marconi and PC?
Apologies for wasting my time replying you

[Joli]

Originally Posted by Whokickamoocow

No apology necessary.
OK. So, if I understand it:
'We know some Class 40 sailors who won't race any races upwind';
...is now justified/evidenced/proven by...
"but you cannot deny closed course race results"
.
..
Got it. Actually, I don't get it. It sounds like a ratings debate now.
Thanks anyway.

And isn't that the reason you sold your pogo? Couldn't win? Couldn't cruise? Um, what good is it?

[Whokickamoocow]

Originally Posted by Joli

And isn't that the reason you sold your pogo? Couldn't win? Couldn't cruise? Um, what good is it?

??? What a strange comment.
I sold the boat for many reasons, none of which were related to its performance or manners.
But to answer your question, it wasn’t good, it was fantastic for cruising or racing. I still get letters from people that sailed her reminiscing about how much they enjoyed it.
It still looked as good and everything worked as well as the day I bought it when I sold it too. The new owner is apparently loving it as much as I did.
I’d buy another one in a heartbeat.
Thank you for asking!

[DragonflyBob]

Originally Posted by Whokickamoocow

??? What a strange comment.
I sold the boat for many reasons, none of which were related to its performance or manners.
But to answer your question, it wasn’t good, it was fantastic for cruising or racing. I still get letters from people that sailed her reminiscing about how much they enjoyed it.
It still looked as good and everything worked as well as the day I bought it when I sold it too. The new owner is apparently loving it as much as I did.
I’d buy another one in a heartbeat.
Thank you for asking!

John Harries, a huge resource in the cruising world at Attainable Adventure Cruising downsized from his 54’ aluminum high latitudes cruiser to a J/109 a few years ago but listed one of his dream boats as being a Pogo 40. That says a lot about the legitimacy of the Pogo design pedigree.

Looks like you had a lot of fun with your Pogo Whokickamoocow.