Boat Size - How big is too big?

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by oldragbaggers

We are looking for our next, possibly our last, boat and for the two of us we are thinking 35 is our upper limit. Mostly for economic reasons. It's not just the purchase price, but the refitting, maintenance, upkeep, dock fees and all the rest. Also we won't have to put a lot of money into complicated systems in order to enable us to manage the boat.

I have read many times that the difference in cost between a 30 footer and a 40 footer is double. Anyone here care to confirm or deny that??

35' actually seems big to us, but as others have mentioned, it is all in your frame of reference.

I charter a 35 regularly - mostly for cost reasons - and we have had 5 people up to 5 days.

5 people and gear is pretty crowded after 5 days and excellent personal gear discipline is needed. Privacy is at a premium.

For two people it is fine and cozy.

Charter for at least a week before deciding.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by rebel heart

I've never been underway or maneuvering and said "man, I sure wish this boat was 10' longer."

Gee, RH, I sure have said something like that... when a ten foot longer boat passed me by, going two knots faster at a smaller heel angle and with less motion and a bigger drinks locker.

But maybe not whilst docking in a cross wind...

Cheers,

Jim

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by rebel heart

I question my ability to do anything these days. Sometimes I think I should have taken up bowling.

Between a bad finger, wrist, shoulder, and foot ................ I wish I could bowl!

But I can still sail!

[oldragbaggers]

For us it's more a question of economics, not a question of handling.

[Agape39]

Originally Posted by Thames 4 Blood

Hi Nigel,
I loved the 473! Stunning yacht and very good sailer! Fast and comfortable! If the right boat comes along then that would serve us very very well!
All the 2 cab versions seemed to have gone to America which is such a shame! They are perfect for liveaboard with the enormous stern locker.
Its the sheeting the main down that puts me off conventional reefing. Its just not a nice job when its rough.... And its so easy to reef a furling sail. I am very consious of the potential probs with in mast reefing but there are a lot of them out there!

Mark

I can give you a few problems with mast furling. On the last trip I took I had to take the first leg with motor only because the main had a fold in it and could not be cleared without going aloft. In 8ft seas this was not an option! Also they are loose footed and sail shape is not always favorable. Although they don't fold and jam often, it always happens when your not ready for it. And it never jams on the way in, so never a dangerous overpowered sail when reefing. Still I am contemplating going back to conventional main so I can have my battens back!
IMHO if a power winch is used in a jam situation it would do serious damage if a dependable overload clutch was not introduced into the design.

Regards
Keith

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Well, as far as winching someone up the mast without power assist, it's easier on the bigger boat, since it has much bigger winches.

Having seen too many in-mast roller snarling (oops, furling) systems that have failed at sea, I personally would not be comfortable with one on any size boat. If some sort of main handling system is needed, the boom furler does at least allow a conventional drop fi the systems fail.

Anyhow, Ann and I manage our 46 foot Solent sloop with no power winches (save the windlass, which does NOT have a practical manual override), and we are regrettably in our 70's. The tasks are made easier by the boat being pretty light and easily driven, so that good speeds are achieved with well shortened sail if we choose to reef early (and we often do).

Finally, re a statement made in an earlier post: here are two experienced cruisers who strongly prefer sleeping in the forward berths. We will even do so at sea unless going to windward in a blow... then all bets are off and we retreat to the aft cabin or a settee.

So, how big is too big? Only the skipper and the crew of a particular boat can answer that, not pundits on the CF !

Cheers,

Jim

I will take this opportunity to mention once again that in-mast systems can be easily dumped even if jammed, or at least mine can. You just disconnect the quick disconnect fitting on the bottom of the furler extrusion inside the mast, and pull the sail down off the extrusion. My manual describes it as coming off "like a sock off a foot", and when I tested it it did just that. Didn't even need to run a downhaul to a winch, between me and the weight of the sail it comes right down. The genoa is much harder to get down. The power in-mast furling also has manual back-up, just insert a winch handle at the mast and crank away. So does the power furling for the Genny. The power winches also have a manual mode, and there are manual secondaries that are more than capable of handling any loads involved. Most manufacterers of this sort of equipment have really put some thought into it and know what they are doing. I have total confidence in our furling gear and power winches.

[Agape39]

Originally Posted by rebel heart

I question my ability to do anything these days. Sometimes I think I should have taken up bowling.

LOL would have been a bit cheaper!

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by minaret

I will take this opportunity to mention once again that in-mast systems can be easily dumped even if jammed, or at least mine can. You just disconnect the quick disconnect fitting on the bottom of the furler extrusion inside the mast, and pull the sail down off the extrusion. My manual describes it as coming off "like a sock off a foot", and when I tested it it did just that. Didn't even need to run a downhaul to a winch, between me and the weight of the sail it comes right down. The genoa is much harder to get down. The power in-mast furling also has manual back-up, just insert a winch handle at the mast and crank away. So does the power furling for the Genny. The power winches also have a manual mode, and there are manual secondaries that are more than capable of handling any loads involved. Most manufacterers of this sort of equipment have really put some thought into it and know what they are doing. I have total confidence in our furling gear and power winches.

G'Day Minaret,

I'm curious about dumping a jammed mainsail... guess I don't understand how that works. For instance, last weekend a nearby boat (Bennie 473) came in with the main jammed. There was a fold in the leach about 20 feet up and it was jammed in the slot pretty solidly. Wouldn't go either way. Had to go aloft and spend an hour or so with him prying and pulling while deck crew worked the power in and out stuff and shook things on demand. Eventually got it cleared, but it left some permanent looking creases in the leach tabling which seem like they might lead to future jamming... hope not for his sake!

So, what I don't follow is how you can pull the sail down off the extrusion while the leach is jammed and there are still a number of rolls on the extrusion.

Otherwise, your multiple backups sound good... better thought out than many boats I've been aboard.

Cheers,

Jim

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Thames 4 Blood

I have heard the same. 50ft would be our upper limit as it gives all the space we could wish for. I think it more likely that we will end up wussing out and going with a 45 BUT.... I also think we may end up trading up in a year or two!
Systems wise... Agree completely! The trick is to be able to "manage" without them at a push... Which we can. I could manage at home without an oven and hob, central heating and electric kettle. I dont not have them because they will one day fail...
Annoyingly, the only yacht that does it all perfectly for us is the new Jeanneau 469. Its so new that there wont be any 2nd user boats for a while and I cant bring myself to take the depreciation hit on a new boat...

To be a sailor you need a black belt in "Compromise" :-)

Mark n Sam

Keep in mind that the maintenance load on a boat is very different than a house. The constant motion stresses everything. In addition the salty moisture environment induces corrosion and growth on anything susceptible.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

G'Day Minaret,

I'm curious about dumping a jammed mainsail... guess I don't understand how that works. For instance, last weekend a nearby boat (Bennie 473) came in with the main jammed. There was a fold in the leach about 20 feet up and it was jammed in the slot pretty solidly. Wouldn't go either way. Had to go aloft and spend an hour or so with him prying and pulling while deck crew worked the power in and out stuff and shook things on demand. Eventually got it cleared, but it left some permanent looking creases in the leach tabling which seem like they might lead to future jamming... hope not for his sake!

So, what I don't follow is how you can pull the sail down off the extrusion while the leach is jammed and there are still a number of rolls on the extrusion.

Otherwise, your multiple backups sound good... better thought out than many boats I've been aboard.

Cheers,

Jim

There's a big pin at the bottom of the extrusion inside the mast, which when pulled detaches the extrusion from the furler gear. Then you pull the whole thing down through the enlarged entry slot at the gooseneck. I get that you think it could be hard to pull down with a jammed leech, and I haven't been able to get it to jam so I can test that theory, so it's a theory that's hard for me to refute. But it came down so easy without a jam I can't imagine it would be too much harder. Worst case scenario I attach a snatch block to the base of the mast and run a line from the main tack to a winch. My manual specifically mentions doing this to resolve a jam as opposed to using the outhaul, to avoid creating the kind of creasing you mentioned. Pulling straight down won't do that. Next time make your neighbor get out his manual and read it, preferably before going sailing. My model is 30 years old, I seriously doubt newer ones don't have the same basic features. And most jams that severe are created by inexperienced operators, it's trying to power through a jam that makes it bad. As soon as some resistance is felt in the system you need to stop furling. And obviously you also need to use your eyes and watch the leech while furling. Is your neighbors boat fairly new, or new to him?

[Sunchaser]

My husband and I have a 40 ft Cheoy Lee. It's an older boat, but we have 2 berths, one fore and one aft with the aft having a queen size bed. 2 heads fore and aft so we can have guests.
We had a 37 ft Hunter before this, and cruised with our then 10 year old son in the Caribbean. The 40 ft boat is far more comfortable. it's amazing how much more room you have with 3 extra feet, a center cockpit and a wider beam.
Things to consider are the draft as well as the length. If you have a deep keel it will limit some places you can go. Also remember if you have plans of staying in marinas many charge by the ft. Be sure you are willing to pay the extra amount of money for those extra feet.
Personally I'm quite happy on our 40 ft boat, even with guests there is private space for everyone. Good Luck with whichever boat you choose

[Jim Cate]

OK Minaret, I'll see if he has and has read the manual. He's a very experienced sailor (ex-broker and delivery skipper) but the boat (a few years old IIRC) is fairly new to him. He had a bunch of guests on board and admits that he wasn't paying enough attention whilst furling... but things like that happen at sea!

I'm glad that your setup has a fall-back escape mode, but doesn't sound like it's something to do at sea. I reckon that I'll stick to my conventional main for now, and being that we have no plans for a different yacht, it's likely a moot point anyway!

Thanks for explaining your setup ...

cheers,

Jim

[SurferShane]

Originally Posted by Sunchaser

My husband and I have a 40 ft Cheoy Lee. It's an older boat, but we have 2 berths, one fore and one aft with the aft having a queen size bed. 2 heads fore and aft so we can have guests.
We had a 37 ft Hunter before this, and cruised with our then 10 year old son in the Caribbean. The 40 ft boat is far more comfortable. it's amazing how much more room you have with 3 extra feet, a center cockpit and a wider beam.
Things to consider are the draft as well as the length. If you have a deep keel it will limit some places you can go. Also remember if you have plans of staying in marinas many charge by the ft. Be sure you are willing to pay the extra amount of money for those extra feet.
Personally I'm quite happy on our 40 ft boat, even with guests there is private space for everyone. Good Luck with whichever boat you choose

Now that's my kind of boat! Thanks for sharing.

[Thames 4 Blood]

Originally Posted by rebel heart

36 is our current and I suppose I could still handle low 40's, but anything bigger than that is too much for me (I'm 34 and used to lift weights competitively). It's one thing to handle a boat when everything is okay, but imagine getting all twisted up on a 50' while docking in some nasty conditions.

More money + more time at marinas = get a longer boat.
Less money + more time underway = get a smaller boat.

I've never been underway or maneuvering and said "man, I sure wish this boat was 10' longer."

Sorry but I struggle with the logic here. I dont see that the skipper of a 60ft yacht needs to be physically 50% stronger than the skipper of a 40ft inorder to dock her... The neatest easiest docking I have ever seen was by a bent up old sea dog in Gibralter, alone on a 44ft yacht, without a bow thruster in a stiff cross wind. He didnt rush because he couldnt.

I am not suggesting I have that level of skill or anything like it BUT the size of yacht one sails is not dictated on a scale of huge physical strength or extreme dexterity!

And conversely... Ive never heard of anyone in rough weather at sea who wouldnt rather be in a boat 10ft longer than whatever they were on?

I am completely willing to accept that for you this is not the case but I do wonder if you would have the same size yacht if you were not constrained by budget? Just a thought...

[stillbuilding]

November edition of "Yachting World" has a recollection of a woman who with two others used to work an 80' 100 ton commercial Thames sailing barge for a living. No engine. Used to curse the heavy labour but carried cargo all over England.