Advantages of a taller rig/30% larger sail area?

[slug]

Originally Posted by Paul J. Nolan

Sail area is like money, sex, and horsepower. In general, more is better.

Paul

Yup

If you want to sail across an ocean you need maximum sail area

Or a huge diesel tank

[KP44]

The taller rig points better. It sails upwind better.
That is not sail area but where the power is centered.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Paul J. Nolan

Sail area is like money, sex, and horsepower. In general, more is better.

Paul

Originally Posted by slug

Yup

If you want to sail across an ocean you need maximum sail area

Or a huge diesel tank

Originally Posted by KP44

The taller rig points better. It sails upwind better.
That is not sail area but where the power is centered.

More horsepower is better in a car where you have a throttle which allows you to modulate that power. The same is NOT true with a sailboat, especially one without a crew big enough to change the actual sails, but when you rely on roller furling to reduce power.


Partially rolled up headsails work like total crap and you don't want the rig to be sized so that you often have to do that. A too big rig is awful for crossing oceans or any other situation where you have to manage the boat short handed over long distances.



A right sized rig will be not only easier and safer to handle but will be faster because the sails can be used in their best configuration and you don't have unnecessary windage.


The "right size" depends on where you are sailing. Where the wind is light and you are rarely reefing and often wishing for more, then a bigger rig is great. In a windy place a bigger rig can be awful, and can be slower too.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

20 SA/D in my opinion is too much for those latitudes. In 20+ knots true you will be reefed and struggling, and you will not have much upwind ability.

Our experience is that a tall rig with a Sa/Disp over 20 give you the most options.

With that there is a simple strategy to enable the best of both worlds and all wind areas.

Our vessel has a SA/Disp of 20.89 (much more with a large headsail) which allows us to sail well in lighter winds.

However, in latitudes or areas where the winds are stronger we change headsail to an 85% jib. With a full main the boat will still sail well in winds 11kts (true wind) or better.

We rig our two mainsail reef lines to the second and third reef positions.

In winds 10-20 we do not reef and the sailing performance is excellent, upwind or down.

In winds 20-25 we put in the second reef and the boat still sails very well and is completely manageable.

In winds 25-35 we put in the third reef and the boat still sails well up wind or down.

Over 35 knots we strike the jib and sail with a 3-reefed main alone. Sailing performance is not superb but we can manage and we can deal with very strong winds in this configuration.

All of these transitions are quickly and easily done short handed. Dragging the extra mast when the sails are reefed has no negative effect off the wind, and we are not aware of it upwind.

However, in areas where the wind is generally light we bend on the 130% genoa and a full main and the boat is responsive in the lightest breeze.

The downside is that there have been times when we needed to change headsail while underway. Not particularly hard but most folks wouldn't want to do that.

So, our experience is that a tall rig with a Sa/Disp over 20 gives you the most options.

Photo: 26kts true wind, Apparent wind speed 30 kts. Off coast of Africa, 7-8 knots boat speed on a close reach. Windvane steering. This was a very wet ride but effective for beating a oncoming low.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

More horsepower is better in a car where you have a throttle which allows you to modulate that power. The same is NOT true with a sailboat, especially one without a crew big enough to change the actual sails, but when you rely on roller furling to reduce power... In a windy place a bigger rig can be awful, and can be slower too.

I think you have a throttle, it's called the mainsail.

[slug]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Our experience is that a tall rig with a Sa/Disp over 20 give you the most options.

With that there is a simple strategy to enable the best of both worlds and all wind areas.

Our vessel has a SA/Disp of 20.89 (much more with a large headsail) which allows us to sail well in lighter winds.

However, in latitudes or areas where the winds are stronger we change headsail to an 85% jib. With a full main the boat will still sail well in winds 11kts (true wind) or better.

We rig our two mainsail reef lines to the second and third reef positions.

In winds 10-20 we do not reef and the sailing performance is excellent, upwind or down.

In winds 20-25 we put in the second reef and the boat still sails very well and is completely manageable.

In winds 25-35 we put in the third reef and the boat still sails well up wind or down.

Over 35 knots we strike the jib and sail with a 3-reefed main alone. Sailing performance is not superb but we can manage and we can deal with very strong winds in this configuration.

All of these transitions are quickly and easily done short handed. Dragging the extra mast when the sails are reefed has no negative effect off the wind, and we are not aware of it upwind.

However, in areas where the wind is generally light we bend on the 130% genoa and a full main and the boat is responsive in the lightest breeze.

The downside is that there have been times when we needed to change headsail while underway. Not particularly hard but most folks wouldn't want to do that.

So, our experience is that a tall rig with a Sa/Disp over 20 gives you the most options.

Photo: 26kts true wind, Apparent wind speed 30 kts. Off coast of Africa, 7-8 knots boat speed on a close reach. Windvane steering. This was a very wet ride but effective for beating a oncoming low.

Also remember that the most pleasant time to sail is when the wind is light and the sea calm

Big heavy underpowered battle tanks can never enjoy this peaceful mile making

Performance wise ,in the ocean , a cruiser must be designed to perform well when reaching. Powerful , with a hull form that tracks well downwind .
you always plan a passage to be in season , on a reach

For coastal work a cruiser must have superior upwind performance

On the coast all destinations are dead upwind

No gps needed, just follow the wind arrow on the masthead

It’s just the way it is

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by slug

Also remember that the most pleasant time to sail is when the wind is light and the sea calm
. . .

Sure, and for those who have a lot of choice when to go out, then a large rig can be really nice. Those who sail long distances and long duration, and especially in latitudes with a lot of violent weather, have different circumstances.

Originally Posted by slug

. . .Big heavy underpowered battle tanks can never enjoy this peaceful mile making . . .

Also agree with this -- but remember that being heavy or not has nothing to do with SA/D -- these are entirely different calculations.


I would actually go further than you and say "heavy" . . . "battle tanks" aren't any fun to sail in any conditions.


I personally favor light strong boats which are big enough to make up in size for the motion comfort lost from being light. My ideal boat for long distance cruising and ocean crossing would be about 65' long and with D/L of not more than 150 -- 160.


What size rig you put on that is a separate question, and comes down to where you will using it. In mild and trade winds latitude, I agree with Wingsail -- about 20 is good. For higher latitudes something closer to 16. A light easily driven hull with long waterline will let you make the most of the smaller rig you will want for tougher latitudes.


"Heavy" "battle tanks" aren't good for anything, in my opinion.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I think you have a throttle, it's called the mainsail.

I agree, but that assumes that the rig is close enough to the right size, that you can carry on with the full headsail.


My approach is almost exactly like yours -- I have two different white (actually dark gray -- they're both carbon), a 120% yankee and 95% blade. In conditions which would require me to reef the yankee, I switch to the blade.


My "throttle" is the mainsail, which performs fine when reefed. I virtually never reef a headsail. I also have a staysail, and when the wind is too much for deeply reefed main and blade, I get rid of the blade, set the running backs, and use the staysail, putting out a bit more main if necessary.



If I spent much time in light wind, rather than wishing for a taller rig, I would simply add a cruising Code 0. But as it is, I'm not much bothered. On those rare occasions when I have less than 10 knots of wind, we do reasonably well -- being reasonably light and with very little windage (no dinghy in davits, no solar). On a close reach and flat water in 4 - 6 knots of wind, I can get at least 2/3 of the true wind speed, sometimes almost equal to the true wind speed. I'm reasonably satisfied with that.

[slug]

A human can’t operate a heavy ,high sail area to displacement boat

The loads are so great that everything must be hydro electric

For human operation the boat must be less than 10,000 kg

An 8000 kg ,SA/D ratio of +20 , 40 footer is the sweet spot

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by slug

A human can’t operate a heavy ,high sail area to displacement boat

The loads are so great that everything must be hydro electric

For human operation the boat must be less than 10,000 kg

An 8000 kg ,SA/D ratio of +20 , 40 footer is the sweet spot

To each his own, I guess. For long distance cruising, crossing oceans, spending months at a time on board -- 40 feet is far too small for me. I spent decades cruising in boats of that size and had a great time, but I would never voluntarily go back.



You say the loads are too great for a human to operate a "heavy high SA/D boat" -- so what? Why should it be heavy? A light modest SA/D boat of 55 feet or so will be faster than any 40 footer, and far easier to operate. 65 feet? Even better.

[slug]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

To each his own, I guess. For long distance cruising, crossing oceans, spending months at a time on board -- 40 feet is far too small for me. I spent decades cruising in boats of that size and had a great time, but I would never voluntarily go back.



You say the loads are too great for a human to operate a "heavy high SA/D boat" -- so what? Why should it be heavy? A light modest SA/D boat of 55 feet or so will be faster than any 40 footer, and far easier to operate. 65 feet? Even better.

The ratios don’t work well for big boats

A 40 footer with good sailing numbers has perhaps 2 to 2.5 meters of draft

Stretch that 40 ft boat with good numbers to 50 ft and you are looking at 3 meters draft and a sailplan that requires hydraulics , a generator to power the system and very much gear that is associated with big boats

In the end the client is always right

It’s been my experience that the smaller boats are the ones who keep going on and on and on and on ....

[jtsailjt]

I tend to be more in the taller rig camp because I can always turn it into a shorter rig when needed. Agree that partially furled headsails are pretty useless but with a blade or yankee not much more than 100%, and a staysail I can almost always find an option that doesn’t require reefing the headsails. My boat is on the heavier side so it’s weakness with these sails is that it doesn’t go as fast as Id like upwind in really light air. But off the wind in light air with both the staysail and yankee, it does well enough so I’m happy with it. My boat originally came with 2 rig options, the 65’ bridge clearance option or the 70’ tall rig option. I’m happy mine is the latter because in light air it at least gives me a chance of having enough sail area to keep moving at a reasonable speed and i haven’t noticed any big disadvantage to the taller rig when reefed. There’s plenty of horsepower available and the hull shape prevents excessive heeling.

But it’s been interesting to read the different, well thought out perspectives from those who favor a shorter rig.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by slug

The ratios don’t work well for big boats

A 40 footer with good sailing numbers has perhaps 2 to 2.5 meters of draft

Stretch that 40 ft boat with good numbers to 50 ft and you are looking at 3 meters draft and a sailplan that requires hydraulics , a generator to power the system and very much gear that is associated with big boats

In the end the client is always right

It’s been my experience that the smaller boats are the ones who keep going on and on and on and on ....

Smaller boats which keep going on and on? Not in my universe.


Look at Dashew's Sundeers -- 65', 2 meters draft, 200 mile days day in and day out, 250 mile days not rarely. Low modest rig, no hydraulics, no generator.


My boat is 54' on deck, no hydraulics. 4 electric winches, but in a pinch I could certainly grind them manually if I needed to. 20 tonnes light ship, D/L about 190. 218 miles best day; 200 quite regularly. No 40' boat could ever keep up, no matter what the SA/D is. Waterline length rules.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Smaller boats which keep going on and on? Not in my universe.


Look at Dashew's Sundeers -- 65', 2 meters draft, 200 mile days day in and day out, 250 mile days not rarely. Low modest rig, no hydraulics, no generator.


My boat is 54' on deck, no hydraulics. 4 electric winches, but in a pinch I could certainly grind them manually if I needed to. 20 tonnes light ship, D/L about 190. 218 miles best day; 200 quite regularly. No 40' boat could ever keep up, no matter what the SA/D is. Waterline length rules.

I think that I agree with dockhead, a 50-60ft boat can be manageable without hydraulics and electric everything. In other words a light, fast boat with manageable sails. Roll up a 100% jib. Have a 2:1 halyard on the main.

But it still won't be Mom & Pop manageable unless they are extraordinary competent sailors and fit enough to jump onto the dock with a line in hand.

But dockhead's 20+tonnes (it that 40,000lbs?) is not light. I am not sure my wife could snub that boat to a stop at our finger pier in a breeze. Or horse a sail and furler back on board if the forestay breaks. But I guess a person can handle any size boat that they think they can.

Slug's comment was that many owners of bigger boats throw in the towel before too many years have gone by. Maybe they get tired of the effort of handling a big boat or maybe they just have more options.

Me, my 43 ft boat, huge interior, but light and fast is the perfect size for cruising for us. It's only 20,000 lbs loaded and I know my wife would struggle with a boat that is twice the size (displ) and the gear that comes with it. We've had this boat for 34 years and still going, just today doing final provisioning for a three month cruise (or self imposed quarantine).

But the right size boat is more a matter of what you think you can handle and what you can afford and

Originally Posted by Dockhead

218 miles best day; 200 quite regularly. No 40' boat could ever keep up, no matter what the SA/D is. Waterline length rules.

Oh, Dockhead I'll take you up on that, boat for boat or handicap, just as long at it is all points of sail and double handed only (Jack and Jill) and if you beat me, I'll congratulate you, but waterline doesn't rule, money does and skill does. Come to Mexico.

About the famed "code 0":
There is a **** hot race boat about 44' here with excellent sailors on board (including the sailmaker) who this year went to a North 3di code 0 on a top down furler to offset their poor upwind speed on the 100% jib. I've been watching them deal with getting it up and deploying it and getting it down for a season now. It is a constant hassle for them. I love it, because whenever they try it I get by because they are distracted by the chaos on board. And they have had broken equipment several times. Plus... it does not actually go upwind, it's still a spinnaker. I can't imagine Mom and Pop doing that. So don't get your expectations too high about that code 0.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I think that I agree with dockhead, a 50-60ft boat can be manageable without hydraulics and electric everything. In other words a light, fast boat with manageable sails. Roll up a 100% jib. Have a 2:1 halyard on the main.

But it still won't be Mom & Pop manageable unless they are extraordinary competent sailors and fit enough to jump onto the dock with a line in hand.

But dockhead's 20+tonnes (is that 40,000lbs?) is not light. I am not sure my wife could snub that boat to a stop at our finger pier in a breeze. Or horse a sail and furler back on board if the forestay breaks. But I guess a person can handle any size boat that they think they can.

20 tonnes is 44 000 pounds, light ship. D/L of 188 -- reasonably light for a cruising boat. You don't snub boats of this size onto piers by hand -- beyond a certain size manhandling ceases to be part of any harbour maneuver process. And it's not an issue at all; you just do it differently. I single hand a LOT including tricky berthing maneuvers; it's no big deal. I generally don't jump onto the dock, although I'm plenty fit enough -- I've developed reasonable skills for lassoing cleats. Berthing is no problem at all -- I would say berthing is easier than with a small boat because the larger boat is much less subject to being blown around by gusts and flukes in the wind. Downside is the distance I need to get from the helm, to the side deck (with 16' of beam), when berthing single handed. But again -- you learn, by necessity, to bring the boat to a complete stop using helm and throttle, in just the right place, so that you can stroll over to the side deck and lasso that cleat. Eventually you can do it even when it's windy.



Sail handling is easy with all sails on furlers. Electric winches are nice but not essential -- with roller furling main you don't need to haul the sail all the way up the mast by the halyard -- the most labor intensive bit (at least one electric winch WOULD be essential with a conventional main). It is much easier to move around on deck on a boat of this size in a lively seaway, than on a smaller boat. The motion is better too.



I've put in sea time on boats of all sizes from 16' to 90' and I can say from pretty extensive experience that the bigger ones are easier, safer and less stressful to sail, especially over long distances and in bad weather. My next boat will be a bit bigger than this one.

Originally Posted by wingssail

Slug's comment was that many owners of bigger boats throw in the towel before too many years have gone by. Maybe they get tired of the effort of handling a big boat or maybe they just have more options.

I've never observed anything like that. On the contrary, where I sail, bigger boats go out more often and are kept longer -- perhaps because a bigger boat is a bigger commitment and hardly anyone buys one and lets it rot in the slip?

Originally Posted by wingssail

Me, my 43 ft boat, huge interior, but light and fast is the perfect size for cruising for us. It's only 20,000 lbs loaded and I know my wife would struggle with a boat that is twice the size (displ) and the gear that comes with it. We've had this boat for 34 years and still going, just today doing final provisioning for a three month cruise (or self imposed quarantine).

But the right size boat is more a matter of what you think you can handle and what you can afford and

Yes, what you THINK you can handle. And I'm 100% sure you underestimate yourself. You would not have the slightest trouble whatsoever handling my boat. My father recently sold his 37 footer, which we had cruised for decades in Florida and the Caribbean. He and I both agreed that it was more work and harder, to sail that boat, than mine.

Originally Posted by wingssail

Oh, Dockhead I'll take you up on that, boat for boat or handicap, just as long at it is all points of sail and double handed only (Jack and Jill) and if you beat me, I'll congratulate you, but waterline doesn't rule, money does and skill does. Come to Mexico.

I'm sure there are different conditions where you could walk all over me -- light wind and upwind for sure, and I have no doubt that with all your racing experience, your skill is vastly better than mine. But I would bet you pink slips that you couldn't get within a day of me sailing the couple thousand miles from Cowes around the top of Iceland and back, nonstop and double handed, or better yet, single handed. Horses for courses. Over long windy distance with inevitable gales -- you want waterline length, strength, low windage, and a not oversized rig.

Originally Posted by wingssail

About the famed "code 0":
There is a **** hot race boat about 44' here with excellent sailors on board (including the sailmaker) who this year went to a North 3di code 0 on a top down furler to offset their poor upwind speed on the 100% jib. I've been watching them deal with getting it up and deploying it and getting it down for a season now. It is a constant hassle for them. I love it, because whenever they try it I get by because they are distracted by the chaos on board. And they have had broken equipment several times. Plus... it does not actually go upwind, it's still a spinnaker. I can't imagine Mom and Pop doing that. So don't get your expectations too high about that code 0.

I think you're talking about a RACING Code 0, not a cruising one -- they are different sails.



You may be right in any case about "mom and pop", however. In any case, I don't have one of those and probably won't have one. Since I don't race, I don't mind sailing slowly in light wind, and if I need more speed, I don't mind motorsailing. So I'm reasonably satisfied with what I have, for my purposes.