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Old 18-02-2018, 15:21   #16
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

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Originally Posted by Fuegomar View Post
This USCG statement is false...a marketing spin and distortion of truth. Worse, it's dangerous. Very distressing that such a claim would be pushed on fearful sailors seeking safety at sea.
My experience is different. Can you provide support/eveidence to your statement, please.
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Old 18-02-2018, 15:37   #17
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

I agree with Mike French that the best thing for those who have any risk of heavy weather is to prepare, set out and experience it as practice.

SHoud be done on a regular basis, but always in a dying storm rather than at a peak. With the peak past, so long as the weather goes roughly to forecast, it should be possible to re-enter the marina withing a day in more benign conditions. In our area, just past peak will be steady 50, gusting 60 to 75 knots in the harbour without sea, and 6 - 8 meters out of the harbour, but steadier wind.

I'd get regular gype for this from others incl authorities. After once or twice no-one I knew would come out with me. Keeping the practice up, in these reasonably controlled situations, without exhaustion, sure paid off for later ocean crossings. Can't imaging an ocean crossing without having had that experience - as much from the fear of possible heavy weather as from the actuality.

Perhaps relevant, providing there was no risk of a lee shore, 10 to 20 degrees off dead downwind, drogue off the back to a winch for retrieval, the 3rd reef main or storm main sheeted in hard to soften roll, and around 20 - 30% genoa.

The biggest problem I faced (more than once) was the genoa reefing clutch not working (as usual) and the roller reefing line chaffing through unrolling from 30% intended the full 120%, and an hour or so lying and tied on the bowsprit re-rigging it while it flogged. Never managed to work out a solution to this risk that I felt was 100% fail safe.

In 15 years never had heavy weather in transit blowing completely in the wrong direction and never had a serious lee shore problem requiring heaving to or lying a hull. Trip planning and weather fax. If you've got a lee shore in a storm - well you haven't planned right, so good luck.

Hope that adds a little bit, even though this was monohull.
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Old 18-02-2018, 16:04   #18
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

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Originally Posted by Scotty Kiwi View Post

The biggest problem I faced (more than once) was the genoa reefing clutch not working (as usual) and the roller reefing line chaffing through unrolling from 30% intended the full 120%, and an hour or so lying and tied on the bowsprit re-rigging it while it flogged. Never managed to work out a solution to this risk that I felt was 100% fail safe. .
Perhaps a horn cleat behind the clutch somewhere, once reefed place tail on cleat and open clutch, we had a similar problem on a large fast cat recently, and it is scary when it unrolls unexpectedly. We now manual restrict the furling line after reefing. We are fortunate in that there is a mooring cleat in a position that allows for a fair run after the clutch. The other slightly less convenient answer is to tie off the reefing drum manually but that requires going forward in less than ideal conditions.
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Old 18-02-2018, 16:20   #19
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

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Perhaps a horn cleat behind the clutch somewhere, once reefed place tail on cleat and open clutch, we had a similar problem on a large fast cat recently, and it is scary when it unrolls unexpectedly. We now manual restrict the furling line after reefing. We are fortunate in that there is a mooring cleat in a position that allows for a fair run after the clutch. The other slightly less convenient answer is to tie off the reefing drum manually but that requires going forward in less than ideal conditions.
Exactly. Really scary. It would chafe through near the bow. Actually, just remember one time within hours of the riggers installing a brand new reefing line before a trip. They hadn't routed it quite the best, and I hadn't noticed during the check.

Crawling forward in heavy weather to manually restrict it, whether to the forward mooring cleat, or pinning the drum, or tying the drum to the safety rail was always b. uncomfortable and felt really dangerous (decks awash a bit) ... but not as bad as crawling forward to re-rig the thing and reef it from the bow .....
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Old 18-02-2018, 19:16   #20
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

Thanks again, All informed sensible responses , lots of things I hadn’t thought about.
The roller furling Lock off has failed a few times as well so now I leave it connected to the spare outside winch.
I’m ordering a copy of “Heavy Weather Sailing” by Peter Bruce.
After 41 years flying it’s a bit like simulators , practicing over and again for something you never want to see, but glad you practiced again and again.
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Old 18-02-2018, 21:02   #21
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

Check out YouTube "Sailing the Southern Ocean" There's a cat in 50 ft waves using a drogue with bare poles just screaming along.
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Old 19-02-2018, 04:19   #22
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

Scotty Kiwi:
The biggest problem I faced (more than once) was the genoa reefing clutch not working (as usual) and the roller reefing line chaffing through unrolling from 30% intended the full 120%, and an hour or so lying and tied on the bowsprit re-rigging it while it flogged. Never managed to work out a solution to this risk that I felt was 100% fail safe. "
- I'm missing something... What's the "genoa reefing clutch" ? Should it be the furling line,cleated ? Or, do you pass the furling line to the main winch? Or, do you have a special winch/clutch just for reefing ?
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Old 19-02-2018, 04:41   #23
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

Like most who comment here I have ocean sailed, but not been in a big ocean storm. Read extensively on Cat storm tactics. This is my humble opinion:

Assuming not on a Lee shore (which means you are incapable of reading a weather forecast):

1. Lying a-hull - suicide in a multihull. Why would you torture yourself unnecessarily? Massive risk in any yacht.

2. Para-anchor - maybe ok up to a certain size Cat (35ft?) but otherwise stresses immense and possibility of massive jarring loads. Very uncomfortable ride and loud banging noises under the hull.

3. Jordan series drogue downwind - best, safest and most comfortable ride as the stresses are lower and a Cat does very well down waves if the speed is controlled by the drag of the drogue.
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Old 19-02-2018, 06:21   #24
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

And,regarding the option No.3:
3. Jordan series drogue downwind - best, safest and most comfortable ride as the stresses are lower and a Cat does very well down waves if the speed is controlled by the drag of the drogue.
- it's important to gain practice how to employ/deploy the drogue. I'm happy, that I've got one,well made by Ace SAilmakers(I hope) with a bridle,the lead chain and about 160 cones. But, I haven't use it yet and from the Forum I know
It won't be easy to retrieve . So, it suppose to be winched. But, the winch itself , will it be capable to withstand the load of the boat+the wave energy ? Should it be directed via cleats - to the winch ?
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Old 19-02-2018, 08:40   #25
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

Without getting into the para-anchor vs drogue discussion...

I purchased a 16' para-anchor last year for my 44' cruising cat. Having never used one, I'm in the process of testing it and working out what is the best set-up for my boat. Here is a brief synopsis of my somewhat limited experience so far and I'd appreciate any thoughts... (I took some video and will post it in due course).

I took it out for a test run in 25-30kt wind. Although I have custom made plates and a bridle for the anchor, I did not intend to deploy the full 450' of rode so just wanted to tie it off to a cleat. I had everything set up on the stbd bow. Once we were facing the wind I threw out the float, buoy and anchor. I purposely left everything a little messy to see if everything would sort itself out. I tied off the line after 100' and the anchor immediately inflated and slowly turned the boat 20 degrees off the wind, significantly settling it down.

Retrieving it was much easier than I expected and it came back aboard with little difficultly. The only concern that my first test run raised is this; although I was only in 25-30kt winds with seas no more than 6', sitting on the bow to deploy it was an uncomfortable experience. I can only imagine what that would be like in much bigger sea conditions. The exact same set-up would work if I lead the rode outside the stanchions back to the area beside the cockpit which is about 6' forward of the sail drives. From there I could deploy the anchor from a more controlled environment and back down on it in the same way. The biggest concern here would be to get the anchor tangled in the engine or rudder which, in severe storm conditions would likely evoke my potty-mouth. On the other hand, as long as everything is set up on the bow beforehand, deploying it takes no more than a minute. Maybe I could deploy it from amid-ships? It's an experimental work in progress.
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Old 19-02-2018, 09:17   #26
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

I left port into a storm once. I survived, but swore that I would never do it again, and I haven't. I realized that in a powerful storm, survival is more a matter of luck than preparation.

For those who are contemplating how to deploy their para anchor, I pass on the words of a friend who deployed his for the first time in 60 knots off New Caledonia. He flaked the line on the on one side of the boat and tied the bitter end to the bow. He then tossed the deployment bag into the water and jerked on the line to deploy the chute. It opened nicely and the flaked line took all his stanchions with it on one side of the boat. He said next time he would put the line around a bow cleat with short scope, then let it out when it was loaded.
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Old 19-02-2018, 10:34   #27
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuegomar View Post
This USCG statement is false...a marketing spin and distortion of truth. Worse, it's dangerous. Very distressing that such a claim would be pushed on fearful sailors seeking safety at sea.
I have to disagree with this also. The Jordan Series drogue was developed by Don Jordan (an engineer), tested with the US Coast Guard, and then the drogue plans were provided for free on the internet for anyone to make. In my opinion, every other drogue and sea anchor statements are a marketing spin...

But, you should not listen to me. It is your life. Do some more research and check where the information is coming from (i.e. who financed the tests and who benefits from it).
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Old 19-02-2018, 13:02   #28
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“STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

We deployed our Jordan series drogue in calm waters. Below is a link to the first of series of 7 YouTube videos I made. Not very good videos, sorry.

After considering what the conditions would be like deploying in a storm and recovering after I think we would do the following:

- deploy by laying along the side of the yacht outside of the stanchions and throwing all in at once.

- for recovery, the forces are immense even at 2 kts and you would be doing more than that with residual swells. We would put two blocks on the bow and run two lines back to the drogue and up to the winches (lagoon 450). We would use rolling hitches to grab a section of the drogue line at a time and pull it in that way.

If you haven’t practiced deployment before a storm you are in for a serious shock!

https://youtu.be/vSqTVF0BYDY
https://youtu.be/2JDnxUyVjvk
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Old 19-02-2018, 13:02   #29
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

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Originally Posted by YARGESOL View Post
But, I haven't use it yet and from the Forum I know it won't be easy to retrieve . So, it suppose to be winched. But, the winch itself , will it be capable to withstand the load of the boat+the wave energy ? Should it be directed via cleats - to the winch ?
I've read that the easiest way to retrieve the drogue is the following:

- Attach (using a rolling hitch, or similar) a line to one of the bridle legs and run the line, outside all railing, to the anchor windlass.
- Relieve as much pressure as possible to the drogue bridle and release the free bridle leg.
- Release the attached-to-windlass bridle leg and turn to boat around. Now, the drogue should be attached to the windlass only and the bow should face the drogue.
- Use the anchor windlass to retrieve the drogue slowly. You can use the engine to relieve the drogue line tension.

I hope I never have to try it...
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Old 25-02-2018, 10:29   #30
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

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Originally Posted by Darby695 View Post
I have practiced laying a hull ( 25-30 kts without the Para anchor ) and it works fine, but in big seas with adrenaline running high as well, I’m not sure if it wouldn’t be better out the front therefore nose into swell?

Where would attach main line to?
Anchor winch -
Cleats - ( interesting Lagoon have No backing plates on cleats!
Anchor bridle ( less chafe )
There are pros and cons to using any storm drogue, para-anchor or other storm tactic like fore--reaching. We believe inevitably personal preference is the best choice for making a decision on what to do. Boat design does marginally factor into the equation.

For multihulls, bridles are usually connected to the mooring cleats on the outer pontoons. Some designs have eyes built into the hulls as a connection point. The loading on your cleats will be minimal as long as “Constant Rode Tension” is maintained in the system. We’ve learned by adding some chain weight at the para-anchor end, using shorter bridles, rode with less stretch, rode adjustment or the use of engine or sail power, can dramatically reduce shock loading.

Zack Smith, drag device inventor and Fiorentino’s head of research for over twenty years, survived a hurricane in the Sea of Cortez by deploying a six foot diameter para-anchor from his Catalina 25 sailboat. The cleats on Zack’s Catalina did not fail and are less strong than on a Lagoon catamaran.

The trick, as Fiorentino has been teaching students for decades, is to maintain “Constant Rode Tension” in the system. You might find the article on page 4 in this Salty Dawg newsletter helpful: https://www.saltydawgsailing.org/wp-...-2017-V3-1.pdf
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