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Old 25-02-2018, 10:43   #31
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuegomar
This USCG statement is false...a marketing spin and distortion of truth. Worse, it's dangerous. Very distressing that such a claim would be pushed on fearful sailors seeking safety at sea.

My experience is different. Can you provide support/eveidence to your statement, please.
Fuegomar did provide supporting evidence with a link to Fiorentino's Setting the Record Straight article reviewed by the US Coast Guard for accuracy.

The issue might be with the inaccurate claims about the series drogue being tested best by the US Coast Guard when the series drogue actually tested worst. Only when significant amounts of weight were added to the series drogue did its performance level match that of the cone drogue and cone sea anchor.

In the end, the report concluded all the devices tested equally as long as the equipment was properly engineered and sized. Did Jordan push the sales of his series drogue product when he wrote the report and its subsequent conclusion? Yes, but Jordan still admitted the single cone devices performed the same as his series drogue.
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Old 25-02-2018, 10:52   #32
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

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Originally Posted by boom23 View Post
I have to disagree with this also. The Jordan Series drogue was developed by Don Jordan (an engineer), tested with the US Coast Guard, and then the drogue plans were provided for free on the internet for anyone to make. In my opinion, every other drogue and sea anchor statements are a marketing spin...

But, you should not listen to me. It is your life. Do some more research and check where the information is coming from (i.e. who financed the tests and who benefits from it).
Fiorentino supplies many US Coast Guard Cutters with both Shark Drogues and Para-Anchors, as well as many Navies from all around the world. This is not a marketing spin, but the truth.

This doesn’t mean endorsement from the US Coast Guard. None of the drag devices, including the series drogue, are endorsed or tested best by the USCG as inaccurately posted by some individuals.

Don Jordan was the primary author of the 1987 US Coast Guard report. Although Jordan favors his product within the USCG report and later sold his product through Ace Sailmakers as a salesperson, Jordan still admitted how the cone drogue and cone sea anchor performed just as well as his series drogue which requires on average 35 to 50 pounds of weight for proper use. The single cone drogue and sea anchor didn’t have weight requirements in the report. Critical information typically not mentioned by those who sell or favor the series drogue.

A big issue is the cherry picking of the 1987 USCG report to sell the series drogue. This is why Fiorentino wrote the Setting the Record Straight article reviewed by the US Coast Guard to insure accuracy. Our goal is to show the pros and cons of all the devices so sailors can have the opportunity to decide what strategy might work best for them.

Here’s the Setting the Record Straight article reviewed by the US Coast Guard. We hope it brings some balance to the misinformation published on the subject: http://www.para-anchor.com/reports/y...drogue_article
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Old 25-02-2018, 15:17   #33
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

Here is one question which I never found a good solution to.

Maybe someone has a thought to it.
While prepping parachute deployment and practicing in moderate conditions is one thing, I wonder how to swing her round in real bad weather.

Lets say its really rough, and you turned to slowing her down with towed warps or series drogues.
In that case wind and waves will likely come from aft of amidship.

By now the storm has built for hours on end, everyone is exhausted and wind is still increasing.

You are dire to try to riding it out on a sea anchor deployed from the bow.

Here the question:

How do you turn her around without capsizing in the beam on situation when swinging her around?

Would be especially interesting to hear from someone who experienced this.

Thanks,

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Old 25-02-2018, 17:17   #34
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

You need to make the turn quickly, within one swell distance.

First, speed up enough so you have good steerage and enough inertia to make a turn towards the wind without getting hung up. I’ve never had to do this while towing warps, but I suspect you’d need to release or haul them in first.

Second, wait for a calmer period and until you’re on top of a swell and any breaking water has just passed you.

Third, accelerate hard and turn into the wind. Ideally you are past broadside to and starting to get the wind in front of your beam by the time you are in the bottom of the swell.

Fourth, turn to or slightly off head to wind as you come up to the top of the next swell. Ensure you have enough power to maintain steerage, even through breaking water.

In short, as above, do it fast within one swell. The same goes for turning from upwind to downwind.
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Old 26-02-2018, 12:46   #35
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

Hi Fxykty,

thanks for your thoughts. Looks like very risky business. Just what I was worried about.

I wonder if its not better to deploy over the stern than to risk this.
Still the slabsided aft side of tge deck house does not make that advisable either.

Maybe the only real chance is to deploy the parachute early enough.
Only idea I do not like on that option is that one turns into a sitting duck fairly early.

Wonder if Fiorentino/Zak have thoughts on this.

Thanks,

Franziska
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Old 26-02-2018, 13:02   #36
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

i have decided against drogoue and parachute anchor. Instead tow ropes and wraps of anchors etc.

Problem even with drogue is that stops down to 3-4 kn and one can slide back on wave and compromise rudders. Other trouble is whwn large steep breaker comes slow boat speed may be too slow to allow boat going up fast enough and causing stress beyond structural integrity.

Active steering. Prefer this than deploying drogue, closing inside, and praying.
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Old 26-02-2018, 13:27   #37
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

I am covinced that a propererly deployed parachute can stop you from sliding backwards.

Though I'd always try to run from bad weather first while controlling speed by any sort of trawled items (anchors, chain, series drogue) to slow enough down to prevent pitchpoling into the next wave.

Still, the situation can arise that you are physically to exhausted to do this as you simply can not steer anymore.
At that situation I am sure the parachute would be a real option.
But, it might be to late to deploy it safely. See above.

I have mine properly pre-rigged with large dia dyneema feeders through firehoses wrapped around the forward beam and onto heavy cleats. All for chafe protection.
Than followed by 100m+ large dia nylon rope for damping and wave teain change.

Still I wonder how to SAFELY switch from trailing warps to a sea anchor. So far seems almost impossible when the weather is real cookin'
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Old 26-02-2018, 14:15   #38
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

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Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
I am covinced that a propererly deployed parachute can stop you from sliding backwards.

Though I'd always try to run from bad weather first while controlling speed by any sort of trawled items (anchors, chain, series drogue) to slow enough down to prevent pitchpoling into the next wave.

Still, the situation can arise that you are physically to exhausted to do this as you simply can not steer anymore.
At that situation I am sure the parachute would be a real option.
But, it might be to late to deploy it safely. See above.

I have mine properly pre-rigged with large dia dyneema feeders through firehoses wrapped around the forward beam and onto heavy cleats. All for chafe protection.
Than followed by 100m+ large dia nylon rope for damping and wave teain change.

Still I wonder how to SAFELY switch from trailing warps to a sea anchor. So far seems almost impossible when the weather is real cookin'
yup, what you say is a problem. i dont think there is magic safe solution. There is xx % chance it will not work and may make things worse. No matter what you do, boat has to turn for 180 degrees or so. And that is tricky part.

Cleat may fail,
rope tangle,
rope & propellers/rudders,
dangerous operation for human in front of the boat
etc

Tiredness is an issue but as there is no clearly good solution, i will go with this option.
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Old 26-02-2018, 14:20   #39
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

Sounds like early enough switch of dealing with the storm is the only option...
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Old 26-02-2018, 22:58   #40
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

I haven’t heard anyone switch techniques from drogue to para part way through a storm. It would not be physically possible unless you ditch the drogue.
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Old 27-02-2018, 06:59   #41
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

in the 80ies rtwing on our cat we had a parachute on board too, but I always (& still) wondered how we could possibly use it in conditions that would demand it's use...
in my mind the scenarios of impossibility would develop like this:
broad reaching or running before increasing winds, finally sails reduced to stormjib, then struck altogether, due to further windincrease boat again starting to surf wildly, wind by now howling:
possibility one: have the parachute made fast to the bows, line led around the boat, try streaming the pc off one quater while boat screaming down the waves & the time the exact moment to round up immediately befor the line comes taut? suicidal imho!
possibility two: rounding up & then dropping the pc? instant suicide!
scenario two: closehauled wind becomes too much for the boat, sails struck, boat drifting with winds just abaft the beam (thats how it probably would have drifted), & when the conditions get too much putting the pc into the water on the windward side? not have it blown all over the boat?
luckily it never came that far...
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Old 27-02-2018, 07:11   #42
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

@doubleU

Thats precisely what I see would happen. I am wondering what the parachute suppliers actually think about this.

To me it looks like the only option is to deploy early. Big drawback is, once deployed, you can not move out of harms way if the storm path would offer that option.

Best is avoid the rough of course. Well done that you managed that.
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Old 27-02-2018, 07:36   #43
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

exactly! if it can be deployed - it wasn't necessary!
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Old 27-02-2018, 07:49   #44
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

From what I've read, the chance of damaging your rudders is much higher with a sea anchor. It has to do with the way the water moves along the face of the wave (water goes up along the face of the wave) and possible delayed stopping action of the sea anchor. Basically, the boat slides backwards for few seconds down the face of the wave against the water flow. After few waves, rudder damage waiting to happen...

With a drogue, the boat is moving slowly and the water flows from the front of the rudder on the face of the wave. The drogue still needs to have constant tension so that you don't slide down the wave face and burry the bow on the wave ahead.
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Old 27-02-2018, 08:01   #45
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Re: “STORM TACTICS” Catamarans

I suspect that depends of the amount of prebalance in the rudder, the ability to firmly lock the rudder and the size of the parachute.

If you do get these three right I don't think there will be a lot if rudder issues.
If you get any if the three wrong you may be right though.
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