Rudder Failures

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Look just below the corner. See the irregular light area to the right of the Plexus? See how you also have the irregular light areas on the left side as well. If this is not air - is it just poorly cut glass cloth?

Mate, i think i have a feeling like you are a Smart guy and reasonable poster, is kinda embarrasing to say this to you, epoxys if they use epoxy when cured created amine blush , if is a air pockets the only thing come to my mind is a poor job ...

[smackdaddy]

And what do you mean I'm ignorant about working with fiberglass?!?!? The nerve!

Why I took my crappy old beachcat...



...from here...



...to here...



...to here...



...to here...





Sure - I'm a novice. But I have a basic understanding of the stuff.

Heh-heh.

[neilpride]

Second picture looks like a sand storm, are you persian??

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Mate, i think i have a feeling like you are a Smart guy and reasonable poster, is kinda embarrasing to say this to you, epoxys if they use epoxy when cured created amine blush , if is a air pockets the only thing come to my mind is a poor job ...

Don't worry about embarrassing me. I don't embarrass easily. I'm just asking questions. I'm trying to learn.

But I do think it looks a lot more like air pockets than "scheduled laminate".

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Second picture looks like a sand storm, are you persian??

No - much better...I'm Texan.

Both hulls were holed. It was a wreck - but it was a lot of fun for me and my two boys to fix up. We learned a lot.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

And what do you mean I'm ignorant about working with fiberglass?!?!? The nerve!

Why I took my crappy old beachcat...



...from here...



...to here...



...to here...



...to here...





Sure - I'm a novice. But I have a basic understanding of the stuff.

Heh-heh.

Looks nice. But, just so ya know, I do more than that each week. And I've been doing it a very long time. Today, I did three color matches, and a bunch of repairs. And still had time for this! Here's an old thread with a few pics-


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ard-67680.html

[neilpride]

Really nice Jobs Minaret, top notch workmanship, amazing the custom fiberglass foredeck box. wowwwww!!

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Really nice Jobs Minaret, top notch workmanship, amazing the custom fiberglass foredeck box. wowwwww!!

Indeed! It's hard to express how much respect I feel for someone who knows all the arcane [to me] stuff to make those wonderful repairs and creations happen!

Good on ya, minaret.

Ann

[minaret]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Really nice Jobs Minaret, top notch workmanship, amazing the custom fiberglass foredeck box. wowwwww!!

Perhaps I'll post some more recent stuff there. Those are really old. I don't like to post pics of recent jobs, like within the last five years (or more). Wouldn't want to upset any clients, several of whom are CFers as well. Thanks, always appreciate the good opinion of a fellow craftsman.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Indeed! It's hard to express how much respect I feel for someone who knows all the arcane [to me] stuff to make those wonderful repairs and creations happen!

Good on ya, minaret.

Ann

Probably almost as much respect as some of us feel for people like you and Jim who have been "out there" so long.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Wait - isn't that exactly what the image posted earlier from the report shows? A stringer with a bonded flange being superior to a tabbed butt-joint?



This debate is seriously going in circles.

To get back on track, here are a few drawings and diagrams of basic stringer construction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FO7pHHPgyE

Do you see ANY similarity between the reality and what is depicted in that diagram?

[minaret]

Article on this subject by Charles Doan-



FIBERGLASS BOATBUILDING: Internal Hull Structures


Excerpt-


Hull liners

Properly installing an interior hull structure can be very labor intensive. Any economy of scale realized by popping multiple bare hulls from the same mold can be quickly negated by the attention to detail required to properly finish a hull's interior. This is probably the one phase of boat construction where builders have tried hardest to streamline their procedures. Their key weapon is the molded hull liner, which is simply another large fiberglass part incorporating elements of a boat's interior that is inserted into a hull.

The larger the part, the bigger the savings in terms of work and effort. A truly comprehensive one-piece hull liner can include not only a structural bilge grid, but also all major furniture components from the bow to the stern. Bulkheads and partitions in these cases are not bonded directly to the hull, but are fitted and glued into pre-molded slots in the hull liner and overhead deck liner or, alternatively, are bolted to special flanges in the liner.

Fiberglass hull liner bonds

A liner can't provide much structural support unless it is firmly bonded to its hull in as many places as possible. The usual practice is to lay down beds of adhesive putty (adhesive "splodges") or thickened resin in appropriate spots, then set the liner down on top of these. This relatively light bond should then be improved by tabbing the liner to the hull with glass tape anywhere there is access to contact points between the two parts. Such access, however, is always limited, and work spaces are often cramped and awkwardly situated.

In the end, it is never possible to create as strong a structure as is formed when all individual components are bonded piece by piece directly to the hull. If the hull is unduly stressed, the liner may break free in some areas. I have heard more than one tale of mass-produced boats failing like this in strong weather. Such damage can be difficult to detect and is always difficult to repair. It may involve cutting away and then rebuilding large portions of the liner in situ, which may prompt an underwriter to declare the boat a total loss.

The best practice is to create the hull liner in small sections and install the parts separately. Ideally, support for the bottom of the hull, usually a grid of some kind, is laid in first. One-piece grid pans are often used, but it is best if the grid is built up in place with each part bonded directly to the hull. Bulkheads and hopefully partitions should also be bonded directly to the hull. Separate interior liner sections can then be laid in place around the bulkheads and on top of the grid. It is easier to create strong bonds between the hull and these smaller, more discrete parts; the bulkheads and bilge structure will also both offer more support to the hull than would otherwise be the case.

Small hull liner section

Another disadvantage to a hull liner, no matter how it is installed, is that it limits or precludes access to the hull once it is in place. This makes it hard or impossible to repair damage to the hull from within the boat without first cutting away the liner. If the hull is breached while underway, a liner makes it harder to both find and staunch any leak, which is why some cautious cruisers always carry a heavy tool such as an ax or crowbar for quickly tearing away a liner in an emergency.

[robert sailor]

There is huge pressures on manufacturers to keep the production lines moving. The overhead in these types of operations is very high and you need volume, as in sales volume. Yes there are folks in the engineering dept but the really important ones are in marketing because you don't make a dime without a sale. Many of you have been around long enough and savvy enough to know that the accountants in these operations look for every nickel and dime. If you save a dollar on every boat and you build a thousand boats a year then you just added a thousand bucks right to the bottom line.
Why do you think they use brass skin fittings or fender washers under deck cleats? Every part of these boats go under a micro scope to look for savings of any sort. Gluing stuff is usually big savings whether it be bulkheads or windows and if done well is OK but when windows fall out in your hand while washing your boat(reported by a Lagoon 38 owner here) I guess the original job was lacking somewhat.
For the average stiff out there buying a new or even recently used HR is not in the cards because even a recently used better built boat is still more money than a new lower end production boat and the production boats look so damn nice. They are big and roomy with wonderful cockpits and light and airy interiors. They generally sail well because they incorporate the latest in designs so all in all a very appealing package. Not only that but the marketing dept of these companies know that 99% of these boats will never really be sailed hard so all in all the decisions they made as to where to put the money was 100% correct. We in the business call this perceived value. It means when people first look at your product that they get a sense of much higher quality than actually exists and the higher this feeling the better the job you have done. So if a builder can remove a few thousand dollars from the structure and put some of that money in places the customer is looking, for example the galley or heads then its considered a wise move because it will help sell more of their product. Looking at the new more affordable boats at boat shows you will here the oh's and aw's from people taking in exactly what the marketing dept wants them to and that's just fine but just don't think you are buying a real quality product because you are not. What you are buying is a real high value boat, meaning you are buying a lot of space or size for the money and for 99% of the buyers its probably not a bad decision. Smack knows for the type of sailing he is doing his boat really is good enough. Maybe someone like Jim Cate who has been sailing offshore for years his view might be different as he exposes himself and his mate to weather and conditions Smack is never going to see in his life time. There is a market for all the new boats and the leaders have done a great job in producing something for everyone.

[a64pilot]

Robert,
Good post and similar posts are in all of these endless threads about high numbers production boats, but still some want to believe that their HunCataBelina boat is just as strong and sea worthy as any other, and all of us with either older or more expensive boats, just wasted our money. It's an endless argument as your just not going to convince them.

[robert sailor]

a64Pilot,
I love a good debate as much as anyone but as succesful as this thread has been its running out of steam so my view is now different than it was earlier on. Its a bit like having a fight with your wife when you both want to be right....almost assured a less than stellar outcome, lol. Anyways I'm now in my understanding mode. I really do understand why folks want the newer boats and I also understand why many do not, I always have but that's no fun in a debate.That's the beauty of this crazy passion we all have, there is always a space for all of us no matter our choices.

Did I remember that you were also into light aircraft and motorcycles? Cheers, R