Protecting Dyneema lifelines at stanchions

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by chris mac

I went simple and easy for our gates. The main runs end with a splice onto a stainless ring. The gates are spliced onto the ring and also a clip on the other end, which hooks the ring on the other side.Attachment 275305Attachment 275306

Yes, I do like the setup that completely eliminates the wire bails as attachment points. The stainless steel rings are a great way to lock the lifeline in place. I have seen boats use a stainless link from a stainless steel anchor chain, which looked great as well.

Of course I don’t like the metal clip. Without further thought on smart solutions, I would tie a small length of Spyderline to the gate lifeline in place of the clip and just lash it to the ring. I think some members will come up with options we never thought of before, which is what I like from these threads

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by hjohnson

Too be honest, I don’t know how big of an issue this is. We’ve had Dyneema lifelines on our Ericson 27 for the past 7 or 8 years, without any chafe protection where they go through our stanchions. We check them periodically, usually spring and fall, and have seen no signs of deterioration anywhere along their length.

Exactly. I guess only direct experience counts because people simply don’t believe it.

Our lower lifelines run through simple drilled holes of the stanchions and I used a Dremel with the small diameter drum sander bit to make the sharp edges round. Never got any shafe there and we have had Dyneema lifelines for 20 years.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Ween

Current ISAF Offshore Regulations for lifelines are:
• Vessels under 8.5 m (28 ft) - 3 mm (1/8") uncoated, stranded stainless steel wire; 4 mm (5/32") single braid HMPE rope; 4 mm (5/32") CORE diameter using double braid HMPE
• Vessels 8.5 m (28 ft) to 13 m (43 ft) - 4 mm (5/32") uncoated, stranded stainless steel wire; 5 mm (3/16") single braid HMPE rope; 5 mm (3/16") CORE diameter using double braid HMPE
• Vessels over 13 m (43 ft) - 5 mm (3/16") uncoated, stranded stainless steel wire; 5 mm (3/16") single braid HMPE rope; 5 mm (3/16") CORE diameter using double braid HMPE

So they do allow Dyneema lifelines for racing now?! Good news

[Boatguy30]

Hose is fine, 💯 agree those old pelican hooks completely defeat the purpose of exercise.

Either just do lashings and untie them when needed or get the over center Johnson hardware specific for dyneema.

[hjohnson]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Those photos don’t show a gate. Can you show your solution (if you have a gate)? I would like to replace my SS lifelines with fibre but haven’t yet found a decent solution for gates that doesn’t involve pelican hooks.

We just use the Johnson Marine Splice pelican hooks for our lifelines. Didn't bother with a specific gate. when the Pelican hook is connected to our pushpit, the whole lifeline is tensioned up, when we unhook the pelican hook, the whole thing goes slack. KISS principle.

That said, we're just on a 27' boat, so keeping it tensioned all the time is not something we normally do. It's especially handing to have the whole lifeline go slack when we're trying to do things like launch or recover the dinghy off the foredeck.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by hjohnson

We just use the Johnson Marine Splice pelican hooks for our lifelines. Didn't bother with a specific gate. when the Pelican hook is connected to our pushpit, the whole lifeline is tensioned up, when we unhook the pelican hook, the whole thing goes slack. KISS principle.

That said, we're just on a 27' boat, so keeping it tensioned all the time is not something we normally do. It's especially handing to have the whole lifeline go slack when we're trying to do things like launch or recover the dinghy off the foredeck.

The whole point is to get rid of the pelican hooks. All the accidents are centered around either pelican hooks or swage fittings.

[hjohnson]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

The whole point is to get rid of the pelican hooks. All the accidents are centered around either pelican hooks or swage fittings.

I guess I don’t see the issue with pelican hooks myself. We’ve never experienced a failure of the hook itself, though we maintain and grease them so the pin operates reliably. As far as swaging the fittings, Johnson makes them with machined fittings designed to be on the inside of a dyneema eyesplice.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by hjohnson

I guess I don’t see the issue with pelican hooks myself. We’ve never experienced a failure of the hook itself, though we maintain and grease them so the pin operates reliably. As far as swaging the fittings, Johnson makes them with machined fittings designed to be on the inside of a dyneema eyesplice.

When I mentioned the accidents, this is with stainless steel wire lifelines, which almost always use swaged fittings, turnbuckles and pelican hooks. All the accidents, a significant number of them fatal, have been caused by pelican hooks opening unexpectedly and swage fittings failing. I have not heard of a single case where the wire itself failed completely, although broken strands often occur with the wire that has a plastic coating.

So when the switch to Dyneema is made, the point of the exercise is to eliminate the pelican hooks and the swage fittings.

That you never had an accident with pelican hooks is fortunate, but I don’t understand why one would be okay living with that risk when it can be eliminated. If you don’t believe that they are a cause of accidents, then I recommend you research it a bit… it will be an eye opener

[Boatguy30]

The Johnson pelican hooks he mentions are a special design that are very unlikely to open accidentally.

I really doubt there is some type of accident database related to pelican hooks or even lifelines, but perhaps you'll share your data with us

[hjohnson]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

That you never had an accident with pelican hooks is fortunate, but I don’t understand why one would be okay living with that risk when it can be eliminated. If you don’t believe that they are a cause of accidents, then I recommend you research it a bit… it will be an eye opener

These are the hooks we use: https://www.fisheriessupply.com/john...n-hook/ls-3100

The tension is primarily taken by the solid side of the hook rather than the hinged part, and as long as the locking pin is fully seated, it's very unlikely to come apart unexpectedly.

[AiniA]

Originally Posted by Ween

Current ISAF Offshore Regulations for lifelines are:
• Vessels under 8.5 m (28 ft) - 3 mm (1/8") uncoated, stranded stainless steel wire; 4 mm (5/32") single braid HMPE rope; 4 mm (5/32") CORE diameter using double braid HMPE
• Vessels 8.5 m (28 ft) to 13 m (43 ft) - 4 mm (5/32") uncoated, stranded stainless steel wire; 5 mm (3/16") single braid HMPE rope; 5 mm (3/16") CORE diameter using double braid HMPE
• Vessels over 13 m (43 ft) - 5 mm (3/16") uncoated, stranded stainless steel wire; 5 mm (3/16") single braid HMPE rope; 5 mm (3/16") CORE diameter using double braid HMPE

I don't see any logic in requiring different diameter lifelines for different LOA. Do people on smaller boats weigh less than those on bigger boats so exert less force when falling against lifelines?

[sanibel sailor]

ISAF regs-

"When HMPE is used, it shall be protected from chafe and spliced in accordance with the manufacturer’s recommended procedures"

Interestingly, I don't see any prohibition or mention of pelican hooks.

[neilpride]

Once the pelican hook is securely closed, it is impossible for it to open on its own, I have never had a problem with pelican hooks.

The distance is small, it's just a small gate to get on the boat, the lifelines have a hook at the end that even if it opens accidentally the rest of the way to the bow keeps some tension.

If there have been accidents involving pelican hooks I'm afraid it would have been due to not closing them properly.

Where lifelines fail is in the swage termination, and even in the cable itself if it has the white plastic cover.

[sanibel sailor]

I could see a scenario where a flogging line catches the pin on the pelican hook and releases it when crew are leaning against the lifelines. That's why I keep it zip tied. Easy to cut the ziptie and release the forward lifelines for bringing the dinghy aboard.

[s/v Jedi]

Every pelican hook sold claims to be the kind that does not open unexpectedly. But these claims comes with caveats: there must be exactly the right amount of tension, while closing a certain method must be followed, while opening a certain method must be followed, they require proper maintenance with a proper maintenance schedule etc. etc.

None of that for a lashing; even a novice can belay it securely and before it fails it will look like it’ll fail for a year or more.

According to Practical Sailor, even the best pelican hook must be taped before going ashore. Electrical tape or gaffer tape is of course much more secure than a ziptie.

https://www.practical-sailor.com/saf...save-your-life

This subject is like the stainless steel anchor swivels: many can’t let go of their shiny “precious”