Now I understand how poor i am.

[JFN]

Originally Posted by Paul J. Nolan

This is absolutely untrue. Study after study has shown government-mandated minimum wage laws result in fewer jobs thus freezing out those at the bottom of the employment market. As so much progressive legislation does, the unintended effects wind up hurting the very people it was designed to help. (And the example of Henry Ford does not apply. Ford was a free and active participant in the labor market, not someone acting as the result of government regulation.. I don't think Ford cared much about his employees--or anyone else--but he wanted to cut down on turnover, which I recall was running over 100% per year. Craftsmen simply hated working on a high speed mass production assembly line. The solution was simple: to keep 'em, pay 'em. The clever Ford framed it as a magnanimous act done out of concern for labor's welfare. Nothing could have been further from the truth).

For further information, search on YouTube for Milton Friedman minimum wage.

Paul

Thanks Paul, That is really interesting about Ford although I read numerous accounts suggesting he considered pay and pricing that led to the purchase of his cars good business not altruism. I am not aware of any accredited studies that show the negative effect of a minimum wage, if you have links I'm happy to read them. Also, and I'm sure you are aware of this - we have tried to impose Prof. Friedman's pure capitalism in both Chile in the 70's under Pinochet and under Paul Bremer following the invasion of Iraq, neither very successfully. In fact, I am not aware of any example of a pure version of Prof. Friedman's approach actually working. I know that I'd be taking a chance saying that in Chicago academia. Anyway, enjoy your weekend. Best Jim

[unclemack]

Originally Posted by darylat8750

And to the OP and the title of this thread. You are not poor just because you don't have as much money or physical things as someone else.... Poor is not graded on a curve.

3 times the dollars needed for basic food apparently is plenty.

How is poverty measured in the United States? | Institute for Research on Poverty | University of Wisconsin–Madison




Dogdam' karmmie bearst'd Wisconsin perfessers.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by spraygun

Anyone can make a point here.But for so many of you,why must you insert some jab at a previous poster.Your postings already describe what kind of person you are.Why go to the next level?Your kind veiled insults are childish,only more cleverly worded.
Make your point and move on.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

You are right.

Quoting another poster could be avoided when not required. I cannot speak for others, but in my case it is just a manner of writing, a technique, likely not an apt one. Too much drama, like Aussies say it. I am not English, hence my way of expressing my views and my choice of words will at times sound alien. I cannot change my views but I can try and improve the way I express them. Thanks for feedback. Message taken. Apologies for sounding like jabbing.

Just saying what we have to say is good and does not give the false impression that there is some kind of fight going on where in fact there is none.

Regards,
b.

[barnakiel]

Here some broadly comparable data from EU area:

Inequality watch

e.g.



I have been living in one of the countries where poverty is declared very high (Spain). Surprisingly, people here are very nice and it is generally very safe everywhere and I would describe relative life quality as very high compared to many other countries we have been to and lived in.

Just think about it, I am living at roughly 25% of Austrian poverty level (sic!!! NOT median pay level!) in Spain and I am perfectly sound, well fed and very happy. I would not go to Austria even if they offered me their median pay (over 6 times of what I have now). I must be one of the happy idiots.

;-)

So, to me, not just poverty is (VERY) relative but also our happiness does not seem to be much related to our being poor or not.

b.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Paul J. Nolan

We live with the outcome of our decisions. Some people major in English lit and choose to become poets. Others become petroleum engineers. One winds up washing dishes in the back of a restaurant and the other goes on to professional success and its rewards. It has always been thus.

Paul

And that's as it should be.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by rwidman

You were doing fine until you decided to insult me by attempting to tell me what I know and don't know.

Society "rates" people on their worth to society. It does that by the amount of money it is willing to pay them. This goes back to my statement on the relative worth and pay level of a ditch digger related to a doctor.

You may not think it's right, but that's the way it works.

Perhaps you would be happier living in Cuba where everyone is equally poor.

Looks like you still have a lot to learn.

First, since I'm a boss (for 21 years), I don't need your assessment as to how well I'm doing.

It doesn't matter whether you are the head ditch digger or manager at a hamburger joint, when you are the boss you don't give a crap what your rating is in society.

You have a job to do and that is all that matters. Maybe being a flunky lawyer or crappy plumber pays more but to be a boss you have to do the job and make sure everyone else does theirs.

Figure that into your ratings......

[Caribbeachbum]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

... all but one has turned down jobs in their profession because something was "wrong" with it (not high enough pay, didn't like the company, didn't want to move).

I own a restaurant ... a restaurant chain, if two counts as such. Most of my front-of-house employees have college degrees. They do not, however, have vocational degrees, like engineering, computer programming, accounting, architecture, public relations, or advertising. Instead, they have liberal arts degrees in english or a foreign language, psychology, economics, history, and of course, music -- it's Nashville, after all. Two were bona fide scientists, with degrees in chemistry and biology. I even had an MBA as a bartender for a couple of years.

Here's why they stay:

- These are not minimum wage people. I pay them less than minimum wage, in fact. But...
- They make a lot of money, especially relative to the effort and skills required.
- Their non-vocational degrees would mean generic, entry-level business jobs; and often uninteresting ones. There's plenty of time for the boring stuff, food and beverage is interesting and fun.
- It would take a long time to work their way up from the bottom in a grown-up job to get to their current income; and given the shabby state of company loyalty to employees, they might never even get there, and they know it.
- It's a very nice lifestyle, sleeping late, interacting with people who are having fun, and helping them to do so; and then partying with their very cool peers in the industry after work.
- Drug testing. People like their weed. And every company that even peripherally does business with the government does drug testing. This stupid drug war has cost us far more than it has gained us. Also, can't call it a war, really. Wars end. (Sorry, that last bit was off topic.)

There's probably a lot more to it, that's what I've just been able to think of spur of the moment.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Paul J. Nolan

We live with the outcome of our decisions. Some people major in English lit and choose to become poets. Others become petroleum engineers. One winds up washing dishes in the back of a restaurant and the other goes on to professional success and its rewards. It has always been thus.

Paul

You seem to misunderstand that many folks are hardwired out of the cradle to become poets but happen to live in an era where they don't get paid.

Let me guess you majored in some tech field and didn't get to take many ******** liberal arts classes.

You missed a lot, and it's obvious by your post.

Luckily for me I did both. Techie stuff in the military then on the GI Bill Liberal Arts (BA)

I learned so much with the liberal arts but only a simple job skill with the techie crap............but it pays. So what. Some of those folks are the most boring in the world.

They can tell you about replacing a certain failed component for hours..... BORING especially since I already know how to do it

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by amytom

We have excellent gun control here in the states. Just the other day I kept a 1" grouping at 100 yards. Not a bad day huh? (55gr 5.56 through a RRA AR15 w/16" barrel).

A 100 yards? And you are bragging about it?

In the Marines, we used to qualify from 200 meters, 300 meters, and 500 meters. Many who have never fired a weapon in their lives were the best shots. Artists are probably the best being laid back hippy types.

They can put 10 rounds into a 1" circle without a problem from those distances. Why? They didn't develop bad habits learning from Dad or on their own. They learned from professionals. They were in art class after school not out shooting deer and squirrels with the rest of us rednecks

Think about this. Marines spend a week just snapping in (practice firing 8 hours per day without ammo, site picture, site picture, site picture) and getting their slings correct. When your sling is correct, it will cut off the circulation to your hand. You could cut off your hand and not feel it. They believe in a tight sling!

Then a week shooting and switching targets. Working under and behind the targets

I was deadly at 500 yards slow fire, prone position............

Get a life.

[Caribbeachbum]

Originally Posted by thomm225

... Many who have never fired a weapon in their lives are the best shots .... Why? They didn't develop bad habits learning from Dad or on their own. They learn from professionals.

Your observations mirror my experience, but I question your cause-and-effect relationship. Well, I think it's bogus, actually, though I admit my sample size is small.

Most of my peer recruits had never fired a weapon in their lives (more had not than had). If you assume an even distribution of "good shots" across all recruits, then in that scenario you would expect more "good shots" would have no prior experience than otherwise. Whom they learned from would then appear to be more a function of coincidence than experience.

It's an anecdote, not science. Everything I've said might be wrong.

-

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by thomm225

You seem to misunderstand that many folks are hardwired out of the cradle to become poets but happen to live in an era where they don't get paid..................

They can still learn a useful trade or get a useful job that pays well. Poets are just not as useful to society as plumbers or carpenters. That's why they get paid less. When it comes down to a choice, most people will spend their money on a plumber, not a poet.

I started out in life as a professional musician and singer. I got paid but not a lot. After a few years it became apparent to me that my future in my "fun job" was not particularly bright or secure. I took a skilled job with benefits and a future. Many of my friends continued as musicians.

Now, at age 72, my vehicles are paid for, my home is paid for and my boat is paid for. I can afford to take my wife and dog cruising for months at a time.

Meanwhile, my friends who continued as musicians are working menial jobs and living from paycheck to paycheck.

Choices!

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Now, at age 72, my vehicles are paid for, my home is paid for and my boat is paid for.

Awesome!

My boat is paid for also.

I paid $2,000 for it and may use it for a while when I start cruising!

[JFN]

I remember years ago going to the Brooklyn Academy of Music and seeing The Band. That was probably 50 years ago but I can still strongly remember the amazement I felt watching and listening to the most amazing musicians I'd ever seen and how much joy their music gave me. I don't remember what the plumber I used last week looked like. But you are certainly right about how few musicians actually make a living wage. There is a great quote attributed to Thomas Jefferson "We are soldiers, so our sons may be farmers, so their sons may be artists." Doesn't flow that way anymore I guess.

[markpierce]

Wish I had a house with a dock like this. Can't afford it. Know my limits.



An afternoon docking, thanks to a friend of a friend.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Caribbeachbum

I own a restaurant ... a restaurant chain, if two counts as such. Most of my front-of-house employees have college degrees. They do not, however, have vocational degrees, like engineering, computer programming, accounting, architecture, public relations, or advertising. Instead, they have liberal arts degrees in english or a foreign language, psychology, economics, history, and of course, music -- it's Nashville, after all. Two were bona fide scientists, with degrees in chemistry and biology. I even had an MBA as a bartender for a couple of years.

Here's why they stay:

- These are not minimum wage people. I pay them less than minimum wage, in fact. But...
- They make a lot of money, especially relative to the effort and skills required.
- Their non-vocational degrees would mean generic, entry-level business jobs; and often uninteresting ones. There's plenty of time for the boring stuff, food and beverage is interesting and fun.
- It would take a long time to work their way up from the bottom in a grown-up job to get to their current income; and given the shabby state of company loyalty to employees, they might never even get there, and they know it.
- It's a very nice lifestyle, sleeping late, interacting with people who are having fun, and helping them to do so; and then partying with their very cool peers in the industry after work.
- Drug testing. People like their weed. And every company that even peripherally does business with the government does drug testing. This stupid drug war has cost us far more than it has gained us. Also, can't call it a war, really. Wars end. (Sorry, that last bit was off topic.)

There's probably a lot more to it, that's what I've just been able to think of spur of the moment.

I'm not sure if I agree that it's interesting work but I agree that a young attractive person with even a modestly pleasant personality can make a lot of money with our silly tipping culture. The problem is the millennials slip into their 30-40's, become tired of working nights and weekends and most importantly, the bloom of youth fades (or at least is replaced by younger blooms)...they will have to enter the career world 10yrs behind those who took the entry level jobs and worked their way up.

But to my point, my nieces and nephews were all in career track majors but all got picky. The problem they face now is thy are 5-10yrs out of school with no history of working in their major. Effectively, their degree is worthless as any employer will assume there is something wrong with them.