need advice IP 31 1988

[missourisailor]

Originally Posted by robfuse

Tanks Handsoff.
Wow I start to think about In light wind it is hard to complete a simple tack and I have to start the engine to turn through ..... anybody else have the same experience with IP 31?.
Robert

It's not just IP's, but any, beamy, full keel boat suffers from the same issues.
You don't want to get into a tacking duel with a fat, full keel, cutter!

But it is nothing that a new technique can't improve.

Unlike your WW Potter 19, you can't snap tack. You have to slowly roll into the tack. Speeding up the course change as you enter the wind and then slowing down the change as you exit the wind. And yes, even then there may be times when you need a little help from the "Iron Genny".

Also mentioned was the problem getting the Genoa through the slot.
Once again, not really a IP problem but an issue that all cutter's w/ genoa's have.
The first thing that you must remember is the stay sail is your friend. and as a good friend, you use it even when you don't think it is doing anything.
With the stay sail deployed, the genny has no choice but to go through the slot. But it still might get hung up.

A way to help avoid this is to start trimming the slack genoa sheet before you start to tack. I usually don't start the course change until the Clew of the genoa is past the leech of the stay sail. During the course change and before I'm into the wind, I continue trimming, and with any luck, I'm exiting the eye of the wind as the genoa's clew is passing the luff of the stay sail.
The wind will then take over and bring the rest of the genny around.

In really light winds, 5 knots or so, sometimes it is best to just furl the genoa, tack and then unfurl once on the new course.

[Emouchet]

Check YouTube channel “slow boat sailing”. Linus Wilson the owner of that channel has an IP31. He is in the middle of a round the world tour.

You will see a lot of video of his IP 31 and Linus is easy to contact.
He also has a Podcast channel same name.

[Cocaptains]

We have an IP 380 and we always have to back wind the head sail to tack, unless it is blowing 15-20 kts

[angelfish2]

We have sailed our IP32 on a big lake in light winds and have learned a few things about tacking, because we tacked a lot. First of all, I learned to “carve” a turn, instead of trying to pivot, like you would do with a fin keel. Back fill just a little so that the clew of the jib lifts just past the inner fore stay, then pull the jib around. Once you play around with that, it becomes almost instinctive. I have never had to start the engine, even in 5-7 knots of wind. Of course, you aren't moving very fast but the nice thing about such a heavy boat is the momentum.

Chain plates are an issue and definitely be changed if you are going off shore, but coastal or lake sailing should not cause too much worry.

An aluminum holding tank should be changed and it was easy in our 32. Our friends with the 31 put in a composting potty and they really like it.

The single line reefing can be a little complicated. However, ours works very well. It has been said that you can change to a double line reefing system, also.

We went from a little Santana 21 to our IP and truth be told, it was a bit intimating. As far as backing is concerned, the trick is not to try and maneuver while in gear. Just give it some gas and then take it out of gear. I can back pretty much straight doing that. I call it “goose and glide”

[PlumBob]

Welcome Aboard, Robert.....

I too own and sail an IP-32.

Post #13 is interesting, in that I've seen that same thing happen. I went out with a new IP owner once upon a time, and we were sailing under Main Sail Only. Doing about 3 knots, with 10 knots of wind on a beam reach. But the boat did stall and would not complete a tack without the engine. I've always attributed that to the fact that we did not have a jib up, and the 3 knots of speed was simply insufficient to push the bow around through the 10 knots of wind. I'm certain that if I had ever gotten to go out with that boat again, With a Jib, she would have sailed perfectly.

I've never had that happen on our 32. We're completely happy with it. I've got so much sweat equity in her now, I can't imagine changing. Now she gets to work for her fuel.

Just FWIW.

[hamburking]

The Tartan 37 is one of my favorites, and on my short list for my next boat. Its a lot of boat for the money. And although it has a narrow beam (compared to modern plastic), I think the interior volume is still comparable, since you are comparing a (IP) 31 to a 37.

The Tartan 37 has a few admirable features...specifically, the strength of build, shallow draft, and a great layout below. I'm a fan of pilot berths. No one complains their sailboat goes too fast!

The IP 31 is a heavy cruiser with tankage. If you plan to spend most of your time at anchor, with mostly downwind passages, then this might be your boat. I also think this is the more expensive of the two models you are considering.

My last point is about ongoing costs...most marina's charge by the foot. So 37 is going to cost you more in the long run than a 31. If you plan to simply park at a marina most of the time, get the 31.

So ask yourself, are you looking for a floating condo that can sail? Or sailboat that you can live on?

[Olddave]

Originally Posted by hamburking

The Tartan 37 is one of my favorites, and on my short list for my next boat. Its a lot of boat for the money. And although it has a narrow beam (compared to modern plastic), I think the interior volume is still comparable, since you are comparing a (IP) 31 to a 37.

The Tartan 37 has a few admirable features...specifically, the strength of build, shallow draft, and a great layout below. I'm a fan of pilot berths. No one complains their sailboat goes too fast!

The IP 31 is a heavy cruiser with tankage. If you plan to spend most of your time at anchor, with mostly downwind passages, then this might be your boat. I also think this is the more expensive of the two models you are considering.

My last point is about ongoing costs...most marina's charge by the foot. So 37 is going to cost you more in the long run than a 31. If you plan to simply park at a marina most of the time, get the 31.

So ask yourself, are you looking for a floating condo that can sail? Or sailboat that you can live on?

I took an interest in this thread because we own an S&S and love it. One of the most endearing features of our 34 is its stability and resistance to rolling at anchor or anytime really.
The OP being a newcomer to sailing would surely appreciate a hull that is reluctant to roll. The Tartan 37 is shoal draft and has a centreboard I believe. Olin Stephens was a genius, but I wonder if the 37 is as comfortable as our 34, with its 1.9 metre draft.
Hamburking do you have an opinion regarding stability of the Tartan or centreboard yachts in general, particularly when they are at anchor in shallow areas and have the board up? I have noticed that centreboard yachts often heel more than others in a marina during a blow.
Dave

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by Olddave

I took an interest in this thread because we own an S&S and love it. One of the most endearing features of our 34 is its stability and resistance to rolling at anchor or anytime really.
The OP being a newcomer to sailing would surely appreciate a hull that is reluctant to roll. The Tartan 37 is shoal draft and has a centreboard I believe. Olin Stephens was a genius, but I wonder if the 37 is as comfortable as our 34, with its 1.9 metre draft.
Hamburking do you have an opinion regarding stability of the Tartan or centreboard yachts in general, particularly when they are at anchor in shallow areas and have the board up? I have noticed that centreboard yachts often heel more than others in a marina during a blow.
Dave

The Tartan 37 does indeed have a centreboard. Full disclosure, I have never sailed one. But I do agree that S&S boats are generally great boats. Jessica Watson sailed an S&S34 around the world on her famous voyage. The features I see on S&S boats are about seaworthiness and passagemaking. In particular, they usually have quarter berths and pilot berths. And while these are great for crew under way, they are also great at anchor when you have a bunch of kids on board!!!

I did personally sail a 1972 Swan 48 (another S&S design) from Spain to Antigua...so I am pretty intimate with that particular boat. And although it had a draft of something like 2.5m, it rolled like...well, it rolled a lot. It was a typical trade wind crossing, dead run, and we rolled gunnel to gunnel for weeks. The constant clanging of everything below was like a cacaphony. And when the wind was light, the slapping of the sails...the mainsail backing and filling with a slap like a gunshot...well, it pretty near drove the skipper to insanity. There was plenty of weight down low, but the hull was well rounded, shaped more like a champagne flute than a nice wide bottomed wine glass. This did however allow it to cut through the waves smoothly, which is very desirable. I've sailed my own fin keel boats on big waves and the SLAM of the flat bottom on the waves is enough to shudder the boat and alarm the crew. Repeat a few hundred times and the stress is unbearable.

So it really is a careful balance of wide beam, flat bottom, draft, and shape. There is more than enough there to write books about it. But the best place to get info, IMHO, is right here, from people who have sailed those actual boats. And the reviews I've read about the T37 are all good.

I owned a Paceship 29 with shallow draft and centreboard. I rarely dropped the centreboard. It really seemed to make almost no difference to how the boat felt or performed. Perhaps in a race it would make a difference, but off the wind or at anchor it certainly was not missed. I did enjoy the shallow draft, and went into shallows I had never dared before with great success.

[robfuse]

Thanks a64Pilot.
Could you explain what is does mean "0 Code". You mention " Auto prop" .Is this something what can be done with IP 31 too. I wondering if this is cost effective(total cost for retrofitting regular prop" versus learning curve to use "prop walk" manually. Could you advise me how to use "Prop walk".
Thank You. Robert

[a64pilot]

First off as a disclaimer, there are many very, very experienced cruisers and sailors on this forum. I am not one of them, just an IP owner.
Prop walk will pull an IP to Starboard, so you want to make all your forward sharp turns to the right. You can turn tight circles doing this
Put the rudder to Starboard and leave it there, a short bust of power forward will blow the water over the rudder and start turning the bow to the right, of course this will also start the Boat moving forward, now leaving the rudder alone, place it in reverse and apply power. Prop walk will continue to pull the bow to the right and since the prop is pushing water to the bow, the rudder has no effect. About the time she starts moving in reverse, put it forward and apply power.
There is no need to hurry, Boat is heavy and has inertia so don’t be slamming the power lever, put in in gear, pause to let it get into gear before applying power, and I pause in neutral for just a second, but you don’t want to slam her into reverse with the prop still turning forward, there is just no need.

An Autoprop is a brilliant piece of Engineering, what’s brilliant is it’s so simple.
What it is, is an auto pitch adjustable prop, put the boat under a load like pushing into heavy wind and waves and it decreases pitch sort of like an automatic transmission in a car does when you pull a hill.
However what it’s brilliant at is motorsailing, if your sailing in light winds at 3 or 4 kts you crank the motor and give it just enough throttle to make it run smooth, my motor that’s about 1000 to 1200 RPM, the prop will increase pitch to put. A little load on the motor and you will be moving at hull speed, burning very little fuel, charging batteries and the motor will be smooth and quiet.
IP’s motorsail very well with an Autoprop, which is sort of another way of saying that they are not the best light wind sailors.

Now the Tartan will always be a faster boat, always, under all conditions. Even in higher winds when the IP is at its best, waterline length of the Tartan will mean it’s significantly faster.

People the buy an IP do so with the idea of comfort, the feeling of s strong safe bait that can handle weather that you really shouldn’t be out in, and good resale value. They don’t buy them for their performance under sail.

Code zero is a racing sail, a Cruising code zero is seemingly just a huge lightweight Genoa that for a couple of reasons you cannot tack, You furl it to tack, but being lightweight and big it flies well in light winds and makes your boat move well in winds that normally are not strong enough to even fill your white sails.

[missourisailor]

To expand upon A64's excellent post..

First off “Prop Walk” is the action caused by the rotation of the prop to move the stern to one side or the other. Which side depends on the rotational direction of the prop.
On a RH Prop (the turn of most if not all IP’s), the prop rotates CW as viewed from behind, for FWD moment.

Because of physics and water density, The upper part of the prop (which is moving from left to right in FWD) is moving through less dense water as oppose to the lower part of the prop (which is moving from right to left). Because of this difference in density, in FWD, the prop is trying to “paddle wheel” itself to the right.

Because all sail boats turn around the “Pivot Point”, which is most often just aft of the mast, any lateral force the prop is imposing on the stern of the boat will cause the boat to turn around the “Pivot Point” in the opposite direction.

So what this means is, on a sailboat with a RH Prop, in the FWD direction, the prop is always trying to “paddle wheel” to the right causing the Bow to go to the left.

In the FWD direction of propulsion, Prop Walk is not that noticeable because the Prop Wash is going aft, across the rudder. Which is a greater force than that imposed by Prop Walk. So the boat tracks some what straight.

However, in REV the Prop Wash is going away from the rudder and so the rudder can not counter act the Prop Walk. So it is much easier for the stern of the boat will go to port in REV.
Until enough head way is made for the rudder to become effective. At which time, it then develops enough lateral force to over come the Prop Walk.

When backing in tight situations it is very common to keep the rudder to port while using short bursts of FWD power to counter act Prop Walk.

Maryland School of Sailing has a great video showing how its done.
https://youtu.be/8qOPM_SMJCc

On the Standing Turn that they show in the video, they are using Prop Walk and Prop Wash to turn the boat in its own length.

Forward at first, then wheel to Starboard to get the boat turning. Prop Wash pushing the stern to the left causing the bow to go to the right.
Then into REV. This not only slows the boat but also the Prop Walk helps the stern continue to go to the left. Once FWD motion has ended, and with the wheel still to the right, a short burst of FWD power continues to bring the stern around.
Once heading in the desired direction, steering continues normally.

[robfuse]

Missourisailor, a64pilot Thank You guys for great explanation and video link. Next season will be time to practice. Question about PI 29. When compare all numbers and specs they are almost the same ( for me) so I guess it's handles and sails similarly to his a little bigger brother IP 31 I just found very well maintained and very clean 1992 IP 29 with reasonable price. Thank again.Robert

[sazarac]

Originally Posted by missourisailor

I have a bias here cause I've owned a IP-26mkII and a IP-35.

First off comparing an IP-31 with a Tatran 37 is like comparing apples to green beans. Both are great sailboats but built to different sailing design spec's.
IP's are designed for room and cruising. Where as Tartan's are designed for club racing and overnighting.

Going to either will be a big step from your W W Potter 19.

Slowpoker did a great job laying out the differences in sailing characteristics.

You need to ask yourself a few questions.
What kind of sailing do you plan on doing? Crusing? Racing?
Do you plan on overnighting on it or spending weeks on-board?
How many people do you plan on having on-board?

IP's are indeed roomy. My 26 had more room below than most Catalina and Hunter 30's. But the price she paid for this room was limited pointing ability. Plan on a 90 degree tack window with the IP's. Tartans have better than a 60 degree window.
My IP-35 has the room of most 40's, but she still doesn't point worth a damn.

IP's also have a shorter stick (mast). Meaning they are going to carry less canvas. But this has a plus side. What canvas they do carry is closer to the canter of effort. So they heel less and can carry the sails longer before reefing. To the best of my knowledge, neither of my IP's have heeled over 20 degrees. And I don't even think about reefing until the wind gets to the high teens, low 20's.

However, IP's do have some flaws.
Number one, and it's a biggie.... Chain Plates! The 31 will have the old chain plates and if not already done, with the age of her (1988), replacement costs need to be factored into the offer price. Replacement cost runs from $10k to $20K.
If you plan only on "protected water" sailing, their condition should not be too much of a concern. However, off shore is a whole nother mater.
In either case, a chain plate failure can mean the loss of the rig.

Second issue are the tank's. IP used aluminum tanks. Which are known to leak after a few decades. I believe the 31's tanks are easy to get to. But on IP's larger than the 31, tank replacement is a royal PITA!

Lastly, and not a flaw but a fact about any "full keel" boat, reverse maneuvering (backing) is a steep learning curve!
If you have not already mastered using Prop Walk and Prop Thrust when backing (or any tight maneuvering for that matter), a full keel boat will make you look like a drunken land lubber, when docking.

Now for the good.
IP's are well built boats.
I know of no IPs that have or had a blister problem. IP did not use a "cored" deck.
All factory attached deck hardware have aluminum backing plates.
Starting with the IP-31, all port lights are SS not plastic. Hatches are off the shelf units. Making repair and replacement a snap.
Factory standing rigging is over sized.

With a full keel, all IP's have a shallower draft than comparably sized boats. When grounded, they will only tip so much before resting on the hull.

The "thru the knee's" steering is a sore topic for some. But I like it because it is a very simple and robust "rack & pinon" steering system. READ...No Cables to maintain or adjust.

And did I mention interior volume?

You won't be disappointed with an IP.
But heed the advise from A64Pilot, if you are looking for a day sailor, an IP will be overkill.

10k to 20k for chainplates? There is something I am missing.

[sazarac]

Originally Posted by Handsoff

Hi, I purchased an IP 32, 1993 in June, 2017 and I thought I would share some of my experiences. As introduction let me say I am not an experienced sailor and have never owned a boat before.

1. Backing the boat up is very difficult. It was mentioned above and I want to emphasise it again. For me, it is the most challenging part of owning the boat to the point that I don't feel comfortable going out thinking about bringing the boat back.
2. In light wind it is hard (for me) to complete a simple tack. I have to start the engine to turn through.
3. I am not a big fan of the staysail. I am used to the jib and when tacking, the jib it can get hung on the staysail forcing me to leave cockpit to untangle. This is especially true in light wind.
4. Make sure the lines move smoothly. For example, I can't reef the main because the lines are jammed in the boom. This was something that the surveyor did not catch.
5. Check the age and condition of the batteries. After Irma, (I am on the West coast of Florida) the electricity was cut off on my dock and, of course the AC stopped. The heat fried my batteries. I also found out that the battery charge controller was the original and could overcharge the batteries. Newer ones stop charging when the batteries are fully charged.
6. Bilge pumps. Check them. I had 2 and I thought I was good. Turns out the 2nd one was wired incorrectly and started activating every 2 minutes. This was after the batteries died. Do you have a high water alarm. Also, check the manual bilge pump. I am sure surveyor did not do this on my boat.

However, after saying all this, I love the boat. It is so solid and on a reach in a good wind it gives the impression that it can sail forever.

Good luck.
Marshall

1. full keel boat with right hand prop will definitely try to go starboard in reverse, plan your departure accordingly. 2. Tacking in light wind, fall off a little bit to build some speed then tack hard over. 4. Untangle the reefing lines or move them out of the boom. 5. The power failed, lack of AC did not fry your batteries, it sounds like your bilge pump killed your batteries. Why was your bilge pump running? Your bilge pump also will not run if the batteries are dead.

[missourisailor]

Originally Posted by sazarac

10k to 20k for chainplates? There is something I am missing.

IP's Chain Plates are glassed in and buried behind cabinetry.
To replace, a lot of the midsection interior wood work has to be removed.

A64 has a thread here that shows the replacement process of his.

In FLA, there are numerous yards that will do the job for around $10k. I hear the factory is even starting back up their retro-fit service and their price was also set at $10k.

But it seem that just about every place else on the East Coast, the price starts at $15k.

I had one yard quote a starting price of $20k.