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28-11-2017, 05:16
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#31
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 303
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Re: need advice IP 31 1988
Quote:
Originally Posted by sazarac
1. full keel boat with right hand prop will definitely try to go starboard in reverse, plan your departure accordingly.
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Just to keep things straight...
A RH prop in REV will back to Port. Stern will move to the left. Bow will pivot to Starboard (right).
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28-11-2017, 06:12
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#32
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Florida
Boat: Scout 30
Posts: 3,112
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Re: need advice IP 31 1988
Quote:
Originally Posted by missourisailor
Just to keep things straight...
A RH prop in REV will back to Port. Stern will move to the left. Bow will pivot to Starboard (right).
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Correct. Yanmars and Betas are right hand & back to port. Volvos are left hand & back to starboard.
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28-11-2017, 06:39
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#33
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Florida
Boat: Scout 30
Posts: 3,112
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Re: need advice IP 31 1988
Quote:
Originally Posted by missourisailor
IP's Chain Plates are glassed in and buried behind cabinetry.
To replace, a lot of the midsection interior wood work has to be removed.
A64 has a thread here that shows the replacement process of his.
In FLA, there are numerous yards that will do the job for around $10k. I hear the factory is even starting back up their retro-fit service and their price was also set at $10k.
But it seem that just about every place else on the East Coast, the price starts at $15k.
I had one yard quote a starting price of $20k.
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It appears that titanium is the material of choice for replacement these days but I wonder why silicon bronze wouldn't make sense. Here's a link to the previous thread on IP chainplate replacement:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...nt-188085.html
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28-11-2017, 09:06
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#34
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Jacksonville/ out cruising
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 31,351
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need advice IP 31 1988
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout 30
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Silicon bronze would I think make sense.
However the Ti won’t stain, isn’t much more expensive, and its 3to 4 times the strength of 304 SS if it’s the same dimension.
Part of what skews the metrics toward Ti on an IP in my opinion is that the labor cost is 90% of the cost to replace, so if you add a grand to the cost of the plates, it’s only a 10% price increase on the job, for only 10% more, the Ti is worth it, in my opinion.
I think you will start seeing Ti more and more on boats, the price for many reasons has come way down, and it’s my understanding that what is driving the price now is non availability, meaning since not much is used, not much is stocked, and any “ boutique” anything carries a price tag to go along with it, even if the material isn’t all that expensive.
So the more it starts being used, the less expensive it will become, it’s not like Gold, there is enormous amounts of it available.
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28-11-2017, 09:53
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#35
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Florida
Boat: Scout 30
Posts: 3,112
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Re: need advice IP 31 1988
Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
Silicon bronze would I think make sense.
However the Ti won’t stain, isn’t much more expensive, and its 3to 4 times the strength of 304 SS if it’s the same dimension.
Part of what skews the metrics toward Ti on an IP in my opinion is that the labor cost is 90% of the cost to replace, so if you add a grand to the cost of the plates, it’s only a 10% price increase on the job, for only 10% more, the Ti is worth it, in my opinion.
I think you will start seeing Ti more and more on boats, the price for many reasons has come way down, and it’s my understanding that what is driving the price now is non availability, meaning since not much is used, not much is stocked, and any “ boutique” anything carries a price tag to go along with it, even if the material isn’t all that expensive.
So the more it starts being used, the less expensive it will become, it’s not like Gold, there is enormous amounts of it available.
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That makes sense but if IP had used good quality bronze in the first place this would never have been an issue.
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28-11-2017, 10:28
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#36
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Panama City FL
Boat: Island Packet 32 Keel/CB
Posts: 995
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Re: need advice IP 31 1988
The IP design relies on welding components together to spread out the loads. Not sure how SB works out in this regard.
In the defense of Bob Johnson, he is very specific in the owners manual about keeping those tangs sealed. A 30 minute process if you are slow. Mine are 26 YO and have not failed yet. Just like the aluminum tanks (holding being the exception) I am sure if you had asked BJ in 1990 about replacement in 25 years his answer would have been "if these boats last that long I would consider it a success". Turns out these are probably 50 year ships so we have to do a little replacement work (not the end of the world IMO).
If I was smart enough to buy Tesla or Amazon stock 5 years back I could just go buy a new IP. I just wasn't that forward in my thinking. Very few of us can see around curves but (hindsight is usually 20/20).
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28-11-2017, 10:41
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#37
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 25,483
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Re: need advice IP 31 1988
I'm a little late to the party but:
-Many long keeled boats wont backup in a straight line. Use prop walk to your advantage and turn the boat any way you want.
-Tacking a long keeled boat requires technique. Fall off, gain speed, smoothly tack thru. This even works on Westsail's and Hans Christian's, so it will work on the IP.
-Many boats use glassed in chainplates, not just the IP. Ti is great stuff but a lot of Ti is about the same strength as SS. Other Ti alloys are much stronger, but dont assume if it's Ti it's stronger necessarily. Also, Ti often turns a dull ugly grey color. I doubt it will look any better than green bronze.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard
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28-11-2017, 14:00
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#38
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Florida
Boat: Scout 30
Posts: 3,112
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Re: need advice IP 31 1988
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankly
The IP design relies on welding components together to spread out the loads. Not sure how SB works out in this regard.
In the defense of Bob Johnson, he is very specific in the owners manual about keeping those tangs sealed. A 30 minute process if you are slow. Mine are 26 YO and have not failed yet. Just like the aluminum tanks (holding being the exception) I am sure if you had asked BJ in 1990 about replacement in 25 years his answer would have been "if these boats last that long I would consider it a success". Turns out these are probably 50 year ships so we have to do a little replacement work (not the end of the world IMO).
If I was smart enough to buy Tesla or Amazon stock 5 years back I could just go buy a new IP. I just wasn't that forward in my thinking. Very few of us can see around curves but (hindsight is usually 20/20).
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No need to defend Bob Johnson. I'm a fan & think he built a great company and great boats. I think it's a real testament that the chain plates are the only real problem with these boats & that's only after decades of use.
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28-11-2017, 14:32
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#39
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Jacksonville/ out cruising
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 31,351
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need advice IP 31 1988
Chain plates, and tanks.
Everything has a finite life, many things are not built to last forever. A lot of boats I see are built I believe for about a ten year lifespan or less, in my opinion.
Automobiles are a perfect example, as much as they cost you would expect them to be designed for very long lives, however the original buyer rarely keeps a car longer than five years, so in a manner of thinking five years is a lifetime.
Anyway I digress, there is Iron in my keel, about five tons of it I believe. I would have thought tons of iron encapsulated in glass and kept underwater for decades would be a disaster, however I have never heard of a problem?
On edit, I know of no grade of Titanium that is nearly as weak as 300 series Stainless Steel, which is one of the stronger grades of Stainless.
Grade 2 Titanium is much stronger and it’s essentially pure, unalloyed Titanium.
Titanium’s natural color is a dull grey, but it can easily be polished like a mirror and it stays polished, it doesn’t tarnish. My Son is now riding my Lightspeed Ultimate Ti bike that was bought just before his birth, about 22 yrs ago, and it’s still mirror polished.
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31-03-2018, 18:05
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#40
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Bogue Sound NC
Boat: 1987 Cape Dory MKII 30 Hull #3,
Posts: 1,348
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Re: need advice IP 31 1988
On the issue of chain plates.
I am considering a 29 or 31 on my short list and certainly this issue raised concerns.
Are there visual clues that will pop up and alert me,are these finding only a surveyor will detect by using instruments,will there be water damage,stains?
Tank you
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01-04-2018, 10:39
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#41
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 25,483
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Re: need advice IP 31 1988
I'm not sure why everyone has jumped onto the "IP chainplates" bandwagon. The reality is most all sailboats with chainplates are susceptible to corrosion. It's all about whether they have been bedded well and rebedded when needed. IP is no different that I can see. SOme boats are easier to remove and some are harder to remove.
One could even make a case that chainplates bolted outside the hull are susceptible .... they still have one side that requires bedding and into which moisture can accumulate through the top or the bolt holes if the bedding fails.
The best you can do is look for evidence of leakage or for bad sealant condition, then roll the dice.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard
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01-04-2018, 11:37
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#42
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Bogue Sound NC
Boat: 1987 Cape Dory MKII 30 Hull #3,
Posts: 1,348
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Re: need advice IP 31 1988
Thanks
going to check a 27 (30) 1986 tomorrow,a little anxious about this issue,however your point is well taken and not sure if the "failure" is due to weather intrusion or poor engineering with pure mechanical stress secondary to the rigging load?
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01-04-2018, 13:07
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#43
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 25,483
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Re: need advice IP 31 1988
Chainplate failures seem to be somewhat rare, but definitely a possibility. I think most often it is crack crevice corrosion due to water ingress into an enclosed low oxygen environment.... which is not good for SS. As I remember the threads I have seen regarding IP chainplates are usually about removing them rather than failure.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard
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01-04-2018, 13:36
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#44
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Bogue Sound NC
Boat: 1987 Cape Dory MKII 30 Hull #3,
Posts: 1,348
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Re: need advice IP 31 1988
just confirmed appointment time,tomorrow will see
posting after
thanks again
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02-04-2018, 16:55
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#45
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Panama City FL
Boat: Island Packet 32 Keel/CB
Posts: 995
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Re: need advice IP 31 1988
Rather replace the chain plates on an IP than recore a rotten deck on some other fine yachts.
Take a close look around the chain plate tang cover plates. If you see significant rust might want to keep looking. Good clean caulked joint is no grantee of chain plate integrity but a lot of rust is a bad sign.
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