More "cruisers" violate borders and more on S/V Zatara

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Augi

From Zatara's VLOG and from this thread, I don't think Whitaker's intentions or actions put anyone at more risk of catching COVID-19 unless where Zatara's ends up, there is a greater risk for Zatara's of catching COVID-19 than New Zealand. That is 99.9% is the case since New Zealand isreporting no or very few cases.

From the OP's original post it is easy to get the impression Whitaker was trying to sneak into a country or use deception to get entry. From what I know including from Zatara's VLOG just before they left New Zealand and the Tongan Newspaper report that is not the case.

On there most recent VLOG Whitaker was in touch with the authorities in Tonga and Fiji. Per the Fijian restrictions the entire crew got COVID-19 tests showing negative before leaving New Zealand.

I think as was mentioned Whitaker can come off as arrogant in a Dallas, Texas, red neck, ugly american kind of way, and that is what I think posters on this thread are mostly reacting to. Including that the way Whitaker comes off potentially "leaves a wake" and potentially is not as safe a sailor as he should be. I am almost certain if you raised that with Whitaker face to face he would not disagree, see the point, not be offended and maybe make an effort to "not leave a wake" and be a more safe sailor.

The flip side, as another poster pointed out, if not for people like Whitaker, the USA would still be a colony of Britain. It takes a certain amount of arrogance with only 1 day of hands on sailing instruction to load your family aboard a cruising sail boat and set off around the world.

Apparently Zatara did arrive in Tongan waters knowing that entry likely would not be permitted. I don't think we know how Whitaker's interaction with the Tongan authorities went when they arrived. After confirming entry was still not permitted, if Whitaker only asked permission for them to stay onboard and not go ashore for a couple of days to rest before heading to Fiji there is not much harm in that.

Of course do we know what Whitaker is really about and what transpires when the camera is not rolling. Of course not. That is true of all the sailing VLOGers and youtubers.

Under the same circumstances I don't think I would of set sail from New Zealand.

If he is going to Fiji he then hasnt followed the rules recently layed out by the Fiji government, read the Blue Lanes literature that has just been released. The rest of us are abiding by the rules, employing an agent and paying for a covid 19 test prior to leaving the country we are currently in. He should be turned away IMHO.

He's potentially causing trouble for the rest us, the agent I spoke to yesterday brought this up.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by billgewater

I have read most of the replies and there was something missing. These small Island states just have not got the facilities to deal with any pandemic. Covid 19 could decimate their populations.
Their only real defense is their isolation and it makes clear sense to me that they should use it.
As they traditionally rely on tourism, this decision would not be taken lightly and it appears that their conditions have been well promulgated. Even if not, it is the responsibility of cruisers to make sure they are aware of relevant circumstances by obtaining clearance conditions prior to setting out for these destinations.

Comments to the effect that Covid 19 is not really dangerous so it should not be a real problem assumes that they are absolutely sure that a non fatal infection leaves the infected person with no ongoing health problems. This is of genuine concern to many medical authorities.



Ultimately any government is elected (or usurps power as in some countries) and that gives them recognition as the ruling authority. So when they make a decision, by far the best thing to do is recognize it and follow those rules.
In their country, their rules, their system of justice and punishment prevail. Not yours.

Making excuses just does not wash it with me. Cruisers have responsibilities.


I just hope that these sailors behavior and the consequences are well advertised.

In Aus, where we think we have managed a Covid 19 death rate which is the envy of the rest of the world, we still have a serious outbreak in Melbourne.

The government has decided to employ fairly draconian actions including total lockdown of entire suburbs. Many very unhappy people, but many more who totally agree. Very serious fines (e.g. $1600 AUD) per event for what we would describe as sheer idiocy, arrogance or selfishness.
This is a very expensive program and many small businesses have now failed, but it was a rational decision made by knowledgeable people who could manage the shut down effectively. Tonga has not got these options so prevention is essential.
We are entitled to take this course of action and the same applies to any government, including in Tonga.

There's something I'd like to add to this, for historical perspective. It is simply that the island nations are very aware that the first white men who came to their places brought decimating diseases. Worse, they believe that some of that was intentional. [South Pacific Handbook] Therefore, insensitivity to the issue of their particular vulnerability to diseases the Europeans brought and their desire to keep it from happening again is a much greater affront to their people than someone might think from sitting at home in another nation at his/her computer screen.

To me, this is not at all the same as "taxation without representation", the cause of the Boston Tea Party.

In addition, the Tongans may be a bit extra-sensitive to people coming and helping themselves at Minerva Reef is that there was a while when people would go there to fill their freeezers with tropical delicacies, and those reefs are one place, protected by isolation, where seafood species can replenish themselves. Taking enough to eat while one is there is not a problem, but taking enough for 6 months is. To them it is stealing, pure and simple. When a cruiser sees it, it does not appear "owned", but to them it certainly is Tongan, not whatever the flag of the vessel is. It is part of why leaving a clean wake is at one time difficult (it involves self restraint) and important (it affects how cruisers yet to come are viewed.)

We spent some years circling around in the South Pacific Eddy, from NZ and Aus back to the Pacific Islands, made friends in some villages, whom we went back to see, and watched changes happen, with time. My "credentials" are as a cruiser, for those of you whom we have not met face to face.

Ann

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

WTF is wrong with people?

It's like some of you have the attention span of a spoiled 2 year old child and reading comprehension below that. You simply want to chime in with nonsense that is completely irrelevant to the specific topic at hand.

If you want to discuss illegals crossing a border, or authorities in some unspecified location, or fines in Australia...start your own damn thread and stop hi-jacking other threads.

I am only interested in hearing opinions and thoughts from other cruisers about the situation in the Pacific islands, with specific regard to the respect for the current situation regarding lockdowns and the googans that feel they are entitled to violate those orders.

Thank you.

What, can't make the connections mate.

The folks who threw the tea into the harbour were rebelling against the laws and policies of the British crown and the empire government. The rebellion spread and after a war The Great Republic, and overall a great liberal force based upon the thinking of influential social philosophers of the day was founded.

To some folks the leaders of this rebellion were heroes and to others a pack of irresponsible law breakers who should have been punished to the full extent of the law.

In their disparate ways the participants in this thread are expressing many opinions, which opinions are often far more entertaining than just a bare expression of the facts they are related to.

If you lack the education or the imagination to make the connections my advice is to take up the reading of a broad spectrum of subjects in a big way. Expand your horizons, become more tolerant, delight in subtlety, be more acceptable of others opinions.

And, starting your post with personal abuse is not very polite.

[odonnellryan]

Originally Posted by Wallaby

"Rarely practice safety onboard with kids" means what, exactly? Their kids, their value systems and standards; not yours, or mine. There is a spectrum of behavior regarding risk, from risk averse to risk seeker. One is not better than the other, just different.

By your standard they "seem irresponsible and very arrogant," by another standard, they are instilling a sense of adventure, and a can-do attitude.

Personally, I do not watch Youtube voyeur-adventures. I prefer to have my own adventure.

Sure everyone has responsibility to themselves, but not using harnesses offshore is just irresponsible.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by odonnellryan

Sure everyone has responsibility to themselves, but not using harnesses offshore is just irresponsible.

A bit like not having your kids wear seatbelts while you are driving along talking on your phone...

[Fore and Aft]

Parenting on boats could be a whole new thread. We never wore harnesses on the old mans trawler and it would have been easy to go over the side when working on the sorting tray. I think every parent decides what's best and then excepts the risks. Nothing worse than seeing a helicopter parent in action.
Back to the thread what is so hard about following the rules? How heroic would you be if they could trace the outbreak of the virus in an island country directly back to you?
Cheers

[Discovery 15797]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

What, can't make the connections mate.

The folks who threw the tea into the harbour were rebelling against the laws and policies of the British crown and the empire government. The rebellion spread and after a war The Great Republic, and overall a great liberal force based upon the thinking of influential social philosophers of the day was founded.

Wait...


OK....


Whew...


I almost peed my pants.


Are you seriously suggesting that zatara is comparable to the patriots who fought to free themselves from tyranny?

ROFLMAO

I haven't laughed so hard in a long time. You are hilarious my friend.

[Kastaway]

I suspect that Tonga contacted Zatara’s last port of call and were informed that they were untrustworthy.

[NaClyDog]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

How heroic would you be if they could trace the outbreak of the virus in an island country directly back to you?
Cheers

Based on previous life experience, people who don't like to follow rules of this nature wouldn't care. They do what they want until they no longer can and then move on to something else without much thought to what has taken place previously. Living in the past (as they call it) isn't their strong suit.

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

WTF is wrong with people?

It's like some of you have the attention span of a spoiled 2 year old child and reading comprehension below that. You simply want to chime in with nonsense that is completely irrelevant to the specific topic at hand.

If you want to discuss illegals crossing a border, or authorities in some unspecified location, or fines in Australia...start your own damn thread and stop hi-jacking other threads.

I am only interested in hearing opinions and thoughts from other cruisers about the situation in the Pacific islands, with specific regard to the respect for the current situation regarding lockdowns and the googans that feel they are entitled to violate those orders.

Thank you.

"It's like some of you have the attention span of a spoiled 2 year old child and reading comprehension below that."

I think this commenter is on the verge of the Very Rude.
We've all agreed that this is a charged forum topic.
Please stick to the subject, instead of the name calling.
Thank you.
SV Cloud Duster

[SailnBlue]

Call me old fashioned, but isn't it rather mind boggling to think that your "freedom to travel" obligates sovereign countries to grant you entry as you want? Hospitality is not an obligation. Stay at home port or in a friendly port elsewhere and hunker down till things change. How many of us dont have plenty of projects to be done in the meantime?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Augi

I am not following. What were the specific lie(s) or inconsistencies?

I have not watched his vlog, maybe there were lies evident in those videos, but there is a difference in spin in the two following statements:

Zatara: We decided to stop in Minerva before continuing on to our next destination to wait out some weather. We checked in 12 miles outside with the Tongan Navy and got permission to stay over until the next weather window which is looking like Thursday. They where super nice and professional and we had a very good chat over the radio.

Nuku' alofa Times:The Whitaker family have been trying to circumnavigate their world, but are now held at Minerva Reef, watched by a Tongan patrol boat.

If the Times account is accurate it seems to me like Zatara left out an important fact in their account, that they were being "held", not simply welcomed.

[OloteleMtn]

English is not a first language in Tonga; why would you want to give preference to a second hand account from the newspaper over the first hand account of the Zatara crew?
The weather in the area at the time in question was very poor, by the way (I monitor the weather in the vicinity daily) and there does not seem to be much of a point in the fisheries patrol from Tonga to "hold" a vessel, when they had already stated that Zatara would be able to visit Minerva as long as the patrol vessel was there, but would have to leave when the patrol left.

[MultiCountryDon]

One can only hope that Whitaker will detour to Singapore and crash that border.
End of story for arrogance. Actually, end of story.

[RaymondR]

One should be mindful that pretty well all countries with coastal territory have had, in some cases, hundreds of years of experience in dealing with the quarantining of foreign vessels and many ports used to, and a number may still have, designated quarantine anchorages.

No big deal, they request free pratique, are not granted clearance, and go into the quarantine anchorage for the two weeks with the Q flag and red light at night. Where is the problem in this.