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Old 11-07-2020, 18:12   #61
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Re: More "cruisers" violate borders and more on S/V Zatara

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Originally Posted by RaymondR View Post
... and go into the quarantine anchorage for the two weeks with the Q flag and red light at night.
They should be displaying the LIMA flag, not QUEBEC.
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Old 11-07-2020, 18:14   #62
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Re: More "cruisers" violate borders and more on S/V Zatara

The problem is that you are disobeying the rules set by a country trying to prevent another wave of disease like the diseases that decimated their populations when the west colonized them.
Not only that, you are doing it knowing that you are breaking their rules.
Rationalize it all you want but it is stupid and has the potential to damage the cruising experience of those who follow for years.
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Old 11-07-2020, 18:19   #63
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Re: More "cruisers" violate borders and more on S/V Zatara

A quarantine flag or the Lima contagion flag?
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Old 11-07-2020, 19:06   #64
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Re: More "cruisers" violate borders and more on S/V Zatara

Quote:
... and go into the quarantine anchorage for the two weeks with the Q flag and red light at night.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fivecapes View Post
They should be displaying the LIMA flag, not QUEBEC.
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Originally Posted by Exile View Post
A quarantine flag or the Lima contagion flag?
Either Q, QQ or QL. Never L by itself.


In most countries (including Tonga) it's:
(1) The quarantine signal is–
(a) from sunrise to sunset–
(i) for an oversea vessel that is free of known quarantinable disease but is subject to quarantine–the flag known as Q flag under the 1931 International Code of Signals, being a yellow flag of six breadths of bunting; and
(ii) for a vessel that has had a case of quarantinable disease on board more than five days previously or on which there has been unusual mortality among rats–the Two Flag Signal QQ; and
(iii) for a vessel that has had a case of quarantinable disease on board less than five days previously–the Two Flag Signal QL, being the flag known as Q flag over L flag under the 1931 International Code of Signals; and
(b) from sunset to sunrise, a signal comprising a red light over a white light, the lights being not more than 2m apart, of such a character as to be visible on a clear night all round the horizon for a distance of 3km, and placed as nearly as practicable amidships.
(2) The quarantine signal from sunrise to sunset shall be shown at the mast-head or where it can best be seen and above the highest deck structure.
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Old 11-07-2020, 19:24   #65
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Re: More "cruisers" violate borders and more on S/V Zatara

RaymondR I am surprised you think this is no big deal? Surely if you have been overseas by plane/boat/car you know that every country has it's own laws and you just cannot ignore them.
You must have watched our TV show Border Security? The consequences of turning up and breaking our immigration and quarantine laws are swift and merciless. So why should some boat bums be allowed some leeway regardless of what country they turn up in?

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Old 11-07-2020, 19:26   #66
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Re: More "cruisers" violate borders and more on S/V Zatara

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Originally Posted by bcboomer View Post
The problem is that you are disobeying the rules set by a country trying to prevent another wave of disease like the diseases that decimated their populations when the west colonized them.
Not only that, you are doing it knowing that you are breaking their rules.
Rationalize it all you want but it is stupid and has the potential to damage the cruising experience of those who follow for years.

"Rules for thee, but not for me."


They don't care for anything other than themselves. The world is made up of many people like this. Unless their actions have true consequences, they will just continue keeping on.


"Yea, I broke the rules. No harm done so it's all good right? What can I exploit next?"
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Old 11-07-2020, 19:43   #67
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Re: More "cruisers" violate borders and more on S/V Zatara

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Either Q, QQ or QL. Never L by itself.
Lima on Diamond Princess
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Old 11-07-2020, 19:55   #68
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pirate Re: More "cruisers" violate borders and more on S/V Zatara

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Lima on Diamond Princess
Huh..!!!
Merchant navy.. What else can you expect
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Old 11-07-2020, 20:45   #69
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Re: More "cruisers" violate borders and more on S/V Zatara

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Originally Posted by fivecapes View Post
Lima on Diamond Princess

I'm not familiar with Japanese quarantine regulations so can't say whether that is correct for there. However, Tonga, Fiji ,PNG and Australia to name a few are as I stated.


For the case in question, see Section 2 of the Tongan Act:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/d30...5fd43f9be3.pdf


All of these sets of regulations are based on Appendix C of the 1931 International Code of Signals.
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Old 11-07-2020, 21:14   #70
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Re: More "cruisers" violate borders and more on S/V Zatara

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Originally Posted by Fore and Aft View Post
RaymondR I am surprised you think this is no big deal? Surely if you have been overseas by plane/boat/car you know that every country has it's own laws and you just cannot ignore them.
You must have watched our TV show Border Security? The consequences of turning up and breaking our immigration and quarantine laws are swift and merciless. So why should some boat bums be allowed some leeway regardless of what country they turn up in?

Cheers
The counter argument is why should people be subjected to a different set of rules framed for a different set of circumstances when perfectly adequate, time tested, provisions are already in place?

We are not dealing with the circumstances of a few hundred years ago when isolated communities were exposed to diseases they had never been exposed to before and consequently died because they had not developed any resistance to the diseases, many of these places are tourist hubs today and consequently exposed to outside microorganisms every aircraft which lands.

This sort of thing is not new, the black death pandemic occurred during the middle ages or thereabouts. Do the mad, impetuous fools running things think that a modern industrialized society which is highly dependent upon mass production and transportation of many of the things vital to survival can stick it's head in the sand and wait out the virus once it has become a world wide phenomena?
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Old 11-07-2020, 21:54   #71
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Re: More "cruisers" violate borders and more on S/V Zatara

I've read these posts as well as the Zatara's and I can't see what laws, if any, were broken including "violating" borders.

Let me get this straight. Correct me if I am wrong.

It appears they legally left NZ by clearing with the proper authorities. They legally sailed in international waters. They legally contacted Tongan authorities outside of their territorial waters (according to their blog), they were legally granted temporary safe harbor by the Tongan Navy (again, according to their blog), there's been no info on how they left Tonga, they legally sailed across international waters again and we have no information as to what procedures they used to enter Fijian territorial waters.

Other than petty jealousy or ZDS I am struggling to understand what the driving factors about this story are. I guess one could argue that without a firm destination that if they encountered a storm they would be in peril. However, in that case, they would be able to take shelter with both Tonga or Fiji as both of these countries participate in the UNCLOS agreements which dictate safe harbor and innocent passage for those in distress or seeking shelter from storms, etc.
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Old 11-07-2020, 22:02   #72
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Re: More "cruisers" violate borders and more on S/V Zatara

NPCampbell, I have been asking the same question, but it has not been answered. Zatara's captain has been accused of arrogance, and of potentially ruining opportunities for other cruisers....it just seems like mean spirited innuendo and rumor mongering to me, but no one has substantiated any law breaking on Zatara's part.
Regarding the Solomon Islands incident, we don't have enough published information to know the circumstances; if anybody has any, please share.
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Old 11-07-2020, 22:14   #73
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Re: More "cruisers" violate borders and more on S/V Zatara

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NPCampbell, I have been asking the same question, but it has not been answered. Zatara's captain has been accused of arrogance, and of potentially ruining opportunities for other cruisers....it just seems like mean spirited innuendo and rumor mongering to me, but no one has substantiated any law breaking on Zatara's part.
Regarding the Solomon Islands incident, we don't have enough published information to know the circumstances; if anybody has any, please share.
Well, this is what is required if wanting to enter Fiji on a yacht at present.

https://www.denaraumarina.com/arriving-departing-fiji/

....and this is the relevent bit..

'FIJI OPENING FOR YACHTS BUT NOT OPEN YET

In Summary, yachts must apply and be approved before embarking toward Fiji, approval is not automatic and each application will be specifically assessed. Applications MUST BE THROUGH AN AGENT, yachts must have insurance and meet other normal border, visa and Bio-security requirements.'

In the penultimate youtube from Zatara they would appear to have ignored this requirement for Fiji despite knowing that it was their most likely destination... Tonga not wanting them.

They appear to have been aware of this requirement ... and if they were not aware... ignorance of the law is no excuse...
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Old 11-07-2020, 23:35   #74
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Re: More "cruisers" violate borders and more on S/V Zatara

Along with Zatara, a handful of other yachts sailed out of Opua that same day as there was a good weather window. Unfortunate that the crew of SV Zatara have been the butt of so many insults on this forum. Weren’t the other skippers just as stupid and arrogant?

The Fiji Govt had provided the guidelines that indicated they were ready for cruisers arriving from NZ. Certainly positive/optimistic people were reading it that way. So Zatara and a few other boats embarked. A day or two after the small fleet departed NZ (June 30/July 1), Fiji made it very clear that they weren’t yet ready and asked yacht owners to wait.

The little fleet that left had jumped the gun, and didn’t have approval. In effect they’d left knowing that too. I guess that they hoped by the time they arrive in Fiji it wouldn’t matter. Well they’ll all arrive this coming Tuesday/Wednesday and we’ll see what Fiji’s reaction is.

This past week Fiji has confirmed the border open for cruisers from New Zealand and clarified the entry process and requirements (using one of the approved agents). But also that each boat must seek and be approved before leaving NZ.

There was no change to the original requirements that a negative Covid test within 48 hours of departure is required, nor that Fiji require sea time of 14 days, anything under will require a stay in an isolation hotel at the cruiser’s cost on arrival. So the little fleet all expected they could spend time at Minerva to pad out their sea time to the required 14 days. The trip between NZ and Fiji is usually less than 14 days, especially for Cats with following winds.

A little ‘fact’ that seems to have been ignored throughout this thread is that Minerva is a disputed territory, with both Fiji and Tonga asserting ownership. Fiji does not recognize any claim by Tonga.

A stop at Minerva is a very common way point for those making either of the passages between Tonga or Fiji and New Zealand. I doubt few cruisers stopping have ever give a moment's thought to the reef’s sovereignty. And it’s often a highlight of the trip. No one lives there, and it’s almost all under water at high tide. And permission to stop has never been required by Tonga or Fiji.

Zatara was always heading for Fiji, but at the same time, it’s understandable that the Tongan Govt became nervous. The skipper of Zatara had made some pretty wild statements in their last Youtube post before departure. As an aside through I would add do people really believe everything they see and hear on TV?

I’d also add that none of the tiny island nations have the medical staff, resources nor facilities to deal with a serious health contagion, be it Covid or something else. All are very poor and decidedly Third World. And this is something cruisers contemplating the trip to Fiji this season need to bear in mind. There is no easy exit back to NZ. There are no flights; Nadi International Airport is closed. You get sick, break a leg or step on a Stone fish and the only option is medical treatment in Fiji.

And I have to comment on this ill thought out post pertaining to tethering and PFDs
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... I think every parent decides what's best and then excepts the risks...
Actually the parents don’t take the risk, the kids, in their innocence do. And so I certainly wouldn’t be taking any of my children to Fiji under these circumstances.

An earlier poster alluded to diseases brought in by the early discoverers and colonisers. You don’t have to look back further than last year when a measles outbreak occurred in Samoa. The science suggested a passenger arriving from Auckland in August 2019 had the disease. And a few months later the results were devastating: 83 deaths (including 70 under the age of four). And over 5,700 confirmed cases out of a total population of just 201,000 people. For more info click here.
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Old 12-07-2020, 00:08   #75
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Re: More "cruisers" violate borders and more on S/V Zatara

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Along with Zatara, a handful of other yachts sailed out of Opua that same day as there was a good weather window. Unfortunate that the crew of SV Zatara have been the butt of so many insults on this forum. Weren’t the other skippers just as stupid and arrogant?
Not sure if we are seeing arrogance or foolishness.....

The other boats did not 'go public' with their plans....

Another 'pleasure vessel' arrived just ahead of Zatara...also US flagged... 'Renegade'... another one arriving tomorrow and half a dozen currently between NZ and Minerva....

Watch this space
...
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