Marinas Think We Are Chickens For Plucking

[Scot McPherson]

I don't think anyone is saying to charged amount is unreasonable...

However, it should have been disclosed upfront.

If you ask, how much to hoist my engine? And the response is $100/hr for the crane and that's all that is said, then that's how much I expect to be charged.

The question was how much will it cost me...he got an answer and was charged something completely different.


That's about all that needs to be said.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Scot McPherson

I don't think anyone is saying to charged amount is unreasonable...

However, it should have been disclosed upfront.
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He did say it was unreasonable. And it should have been in writing.

[Stu Jackson]

Someone earlier mentioned a boatyard in Alameda. While I read the other reviews on Yelp, which were 50/50 good and great to horrible, it seems there are some rip off artists out there:

I agree with Ron [earlier yelp post], integrity is not one of their strong suits. The office staff, including Sarah, are quite nice. Leadership is horrible. I had to have my bow pulpit replaced. While they were at it, I asked to have a macerator pump that I had in hand installed to replace the old one on the boat, which had good access. First, they ripped off my old bow pulpit, making the boat useless, for SEVEN weeks! They claimed the metal shop was to blame. When I asked why they'd taken the old one off before the new one was ready to be built, they claimed they needed the old one for measurements. I explained that my boat was in the same marina, no further away than their yard, and they could have measured the old pulpit anytime. They kept claiming the metal shop was to blame, when indeed it was their own poor scheduling and project management. Then they complained to me that my boat was taking up space in their yard!!! How dare they.

They quoted me 1 hour to replace the macerator pump. The bill was for 6.2 hours = $762!!! Nonsense. They said they had to rip all the other plumbing in the easily accessible compartment right in the saloon out. That's why it took so much time. I found an old picture of that area which showed some tape on a hose clamp - that tape was still there! They did not move anything. In addition, they hadn't even screwed the new pump down, and where it was precluded me from opening the seacock! They "fixed it" by only using two of the four screws.

When I gave them an "opportunity to correct their billing error" they became abusive to me. "I didn't make any money off your work, go somewhere else." "If you people think you can do it faster than we can, then go somewhere else." "My people do good work," to which I replied, "If they do such good work, how come they messed up the macerator installation and had to point it out to you so you come back and fix it?!?"

I used to use this yard for 16 years, and the prior owner, Peter, was quite good and their yard manager, Greg, is fine, although he wasn't involved in any of this work.

I won't go back. In fact, Sean has banned me from his yard. As I left, after he grudgingly gave me money back that he never should have charged me for in the first place, he yelled, "Go to Svend's, go to KKMI, never come back here!" Guess what I'll do?

Scheduling is horrible.

Promises are unfulfilled.

Work is shoddy.

Attitude is unfriendly, belligerent and downright nasty if you question anything.

Don't bother going here. Ever. For anything.

[hellosailor]

"Previous to this he tried to charge me for a haulout he never did. "
That should have been a red flag.

Or maybe, I'm just easily offended by little gaffs like that.

[S/V_Surya]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

"Previous to this he tried to charge me for a haulout he never did. "
That should have been a red flag.

Or maybe, I'm just easily offended by little gaffs like that.

I attributed this mistake to confusion on his part. I had a winter haul out and when it went back in I was taking on water so had to pull it again. He forgot I had the winter haul out and tried to charge me for regular haul. I had to explain this to him and he finally got it. He is disorganized and that is what scare me. But I have photos and reciepts if it come down to it.

But to get back on topic, I want to say this is just one scenario of Marinas over charging. When I need work on my car I go to my mechanic that I trust (somewhat) and say how much for service, he gives me a price and that is what I am charged.

My next example is my previous marina; I need my trans pulled and rebuilt, they quoted $1500 and some change. It came to $2500. I assumed their quote was fixed price it turns out the quote was just an estimate. I paid it because they uncovered some problem areas that were unforseen, but wtf. I am not sure you can ever get a solid number from these guys.
Not enough competition.

So we need not dwell on this one incident. I can handle it. I am just seeing a pattern of deceit from this industry.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by S/V_Surya

I attributed this mistake to confusion on his part. I had a winter haul out and when it went back in I was taking on water so had to pull it again. He forgot I had the winter haul out and tried to charge me for regular haul. I had to explain this to him and he finally got it. He is disorganized and that is what scare me. But I have photos and reciepts if it come down to it.

But to get back on topic, I want to say this is just one scenario of Marinas over charging. When I need work on my car I go to my mechanic that I trust (somewhat) and say how much for service, he gives me a price and that is what I am charged.

My next example is my previous marina; I need my trans pulled and rebuilt, they quoted $1500 and some change. It came to $2500. I assumed their quote was fixed price it turns out the quote was just an estimate. I paid it because they uncovered some problem areas that were unforseen, but wtf. I am not sure you can ever get a solid number from these guys.
Not enough competition.

So we need not dwell on this one incident. I can handle it. I am just seeing a pattern of deceit from this industry.

Was the $1500 written? Did you read the contract, if so? I see a pattern too and that is you not getting written contracts and/or not reading them carefully. Your allegations against the industry are as off base as if I said everyone in the industry does great work and is honest just because my experiences with who I use have been good.

If it keeps happening to you, then there might be some reasons other than the industry, things you can prevent in the future.

[hellosailor]

Confusion. Ahuh.

About five years ago David Pogue (science/tech writer for the NYTimes) was overbilled by his cellular provider, so he published a note asking readers to email him if they had been incorrectly billed, either under or over, by their providers.

He said he'd never do that again, because a couple of thousand emails came in overnight, and the funny thing was that EVERY one of them had been overcharged. One would think that if it was random billing errors, clerks making order entry mistakes, etc. that half might be overcharged, but half would also be undercharged.

Nope, every one of them was "Gee, we're sorry, how could that have happened" but OVER charged every time.

Some people are legitimately confused. Others? Confused like a fox in a hen house. Oh dear, oh dear, which one shall I eat first?

[mbianka]

Originally Posted by zboss

So many people just don't pay attention to their bills. On the other hand... 2 people for three hours @ 240 to pull an engine and $100 for a crane isn't such a bad bill considering it would probably take me much longer.

What bugs me is marinas that don't offer any services but then charge a vendor fee of 20% when you need to call in a pro. That's a pretty big markup.

My boatyard only takes 10%. Luckily I do most of my own maintenance.

[Nauti-Nauti]

Sounds like the chicken s--t airlines that sell you a ticket and then charge you for the seat. (Spirit Airlines...NEVER FLY)

[Andy73]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

Sorry - Not intending to pick on you (too much) - If the point is the "hidden" costs, I understand the surprise factor.
SNIP

I have to disagree. There shouldn't be "hidden" costs.

I am not arguing whether the OP did everything properly or the total cost, but I do believe a service provider should provide an honest estimate for the service before starting.

Saying that "hidden" costs should have been "understood" is plain dishonesty in my book.

[accomplice]

I recently had quite a bit of work done at a very reputable boat yard. Very nice people. Knowledgable. They estimated the work at $32k. While the work was going on, in discussion with them, I added about $5k worth of work. They knew when the deadline for finishing the work was, but still didn't have the important stuff working when I went to pick it up on the agreed upon date. Much to my surprise, when they presented me the bill, it was for over $80k -- more than double their estimate. I went over the invoice with them with a fine tooth comb, got them to acknowledge many billing errors, and remove charges for work that in the end didn't work (charged me almost $5k to install a new refrigeration compressor; then, when it didn't work, wanted to charge me another $3k to take it out!). I ended up getting them to adjust the bill somewhat, but I still feel I overpaid by at least a factor of 2.

They were very nice people, and I believe they are honest -- they just did a piss-poor job of managing schedule and cost. They tried to make it better by sending a tech to redo some of the work that hadn't been done right, but I learned my lesson.

I will never again have a boat yard do any work that I could do myself. I will never have a boat yard work on a time and materials basis. Any money that I spend on parts and tools is more than justified by the savings on labor costs and (marked-up) parts that I would otherwise have had to pay at a yard.

I'm sure there are boat yards out there that are dishonest, or ones that greedy. I don't think these folks were either of those things.

As a final detail, I'll leave you with this. I needed new headsails, and since they were near the boat and had worked with my sail loft, I asked them to take the measurements. I was very surprised when they charged me over $300 to measure the forestay and the track location -- which is bad enough. The worst part is that they got it WRONG and the genoa is 22" too short. Fortunately, the sail loft is great and wants me to be a happy customer and is willing to redo the sail at their own expense, even though it wasn't their error.

[weavis]

I NEVER ask for estimates anymore.
I ask for a price for each job. If the person says "well we dont know how long" etc...... I smile and move on.
Since adopting this methodology, I find honest companies will give me a price that I either accept or dont accept. Only once in 6 years has an attempt to blatantly railroad me been made. It didnt work.
I also do not in the main go for big companies. I choose hardworking independent contractors who come with a recommendation. I dont care if a job takes them half the time they estimated as long as I agreed a price before hand. Its their gain and my gain if the job is EXACTLY what I paid for and I think the price is fair.
I had an engine overhaul in Florida priced at $3650. When the engine was stripped, it turned out to be quick simple fix rather than what was suspected. The mechanic only charged me $1200. He also fixed a nagging issue I had on my generator which I never mentioned to him but he found it anyways.
I gave him 3 tickets to Disney for himself wife and kid, and 2 nights stay in The Rosen hotel. (I got comp Disney all the time). I also turned him on to a lot of my friends. Damn fine engineer and decent man. From Mauritius.
So there is good and bad out there. Sometimes we get lucky.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by Andy73

I have to disagree. There shouldn't be "hidden" costs.

.

I think I was saying that hidden costs were a foul ball and I understood OP if he was PO'd aobut them.
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Originally Posted by weavis

I NEVER ask for estimates anymore.
I ask for a price for each job. If the person says "well we dont know how long" etc...... I smile and move on.
<snip>

I had an engine overhaul in Florida priced at $3650. When the engine was stripped, it turned out to be quick simple fix rather than what was suspected. The mechanic only charged me $1200. He also fixed a nagging issue I had on my generator which I never mentioned to him but he found it anyways.

I think I agree with this theory except. I am the vendor. I have to quote you a fixed price. If the block is cracked I gotta go buy a $3,000 block somewhere and eat the "fixed" price quote cost?

Yet I find less work to do and you reap the benefit? Disney tickets aside that seems unfair.

I am happy to quote parts + 10% + fixed labor cost. And for those who think 10% is an undreasonable mark up for parts, try finding a head for a Volvo MD2010...

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

I think I was saying that hidden costs were a foul ball and I understood OP if he was PO'd aobut them.
.


I think I agree with this theory except. I am the vendor. I have to quote you a fixed price. If the block is cracked I gotta go buy a $3,000 block somewhere and eat the "fixed" price quote cost?

Yet I find less work to do and you reap the benefit? Disney tickets aside that seems unfair.

I am happy to quote parts + 10% + fixed labor cost. And for those who think 10% is an undreasonable mark up for parts, try finding a head for a Volvo MD2010...

My community here works like this. My engine comes out, it is checked. If it what is suspected, it goes to a local service that exchanges motors or re- skims the unit or welds it. 3 day service. No one buys anything till they know what needs doing. It is put back in, everything reattached and orft we jolly well go. I get to pay what is necessary for the job, but am aware of the FULL price if it all has to be done. Sometimes I decide to go ahead and do the full job anyways because I have peace of mind and a 'new' start with engines etc. We have communication and a working friend of friend relationship. I like that.

Other types of work are more difficult to price. But no where no time and no how shoud a price treble. I find in boating that you have to pick your contractors CAREFULLY. I guess that is why a lot of us do the work ourselves and suck up the time factor.

[IdoraKeeper]

In a busy yard, the problem's quickly add up if you are not right there to keep the job on track. The guys doing the work are a scarce resource at certain times of the year. And yes, your sailboat job is worth way less than that 120ft tug job that just came up. One needs to be realistic about the status of events. The yard and services within must make a profit or there will be no yard. Your boat can get trapped in the yard, job not complete while you accrue fees just for being there. If its a wood boat she will dry out on you and then things really snowball. Once the job is behind the 8 ball you have lost control of the price.
I get a quote from the vendor which is inevitably an estimate. I work with the vendor to schedule my arrival in the yard at the time most favourable to actually having the crew able to stay on task and complete the work in a reasonable amount of time. I treat everyone in the yard with respect but I never just walk away from the job and expect that I will stay at the top of the list. I pay my bill when its time to pay up. Believe me, the time to bitch is not when the job is done, its when and during the process of the work, if the job is not going well. You gotta be there in the interest of your own vessel. Its part of being the skipper.
Two more things.... I never hire work I ought to do myself....you must keep up with events or you will not know what to expect. Example, we just got a whole bunch of new rules due to accidents and law suits and government fines. I will need to know all about that before haul out this spring.