Life Raft Discussion.... Yes or No?

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Ken, I suggested a US raft because I think you have run out of time for a UK one. It would have to go air mail and the courier will have a fit when they realise a liferaft has flares and a co2 cylinder in it for a flight on an aircraft.

If you go the dinghy route then a really good grab bag and a couple of 20L water containers 3/4 full so they float will be high on your list and mounted for quick release.

Should be a good trip, YT video?

Yes, the GoPro is packed and ready to go, but I’m hoping for a relaxing uneventful trip of fine dining with the boys, listening to music and sorting out the smaller details on the boat, such as installing a Tank Tender. Exciting stuff.

[NSboatman]

Debated this many times. And I’ve flip flopped many times too. Early days- pre kids when I was broke but invincible (or at least behaved that way) I was firmly in the no life raft camp. I outfitted our dinghy carefully- built shelter canvas, dry bags with gear, etc.

Later, delivering others boats when there was never enough time to check them properly, never the right conditions to ensure their gear was well found- I found some solace in knowing that there was a survival shelter certified by someone allegedly qualified on the boat... however valid that may be.

Then we got another boat- still pre kids, but now we did more serious remote exploits with friends and family- still broke- but after 10 years of SAR work, a little more aware of human frailty and vulnerability. Still went the ‘seriously outfitted dinghy’ approach. Don’t rely on others and set yourself up for self rescue. Seems the ‘intelligent and informed’, self-sufficient, self rescue approach, doesn’t it?

Then while putting things away one year I had a couple hours and a few beers, and I went through the gear as if I needed it (although I was alongside and used the dock). I found that two of my dry bags had chafed thru and were decidedly not dry anymore. The effect on their contents was sobering. My cover worked but was ungainly and I doubted its ability to withstand a serious gale. After 3 very tasty large extra special bitters, I felt I was in enough of an altered state to kind of simulate a type of shock or trauma that might be similar to what I might feel in an abandon situation.

A stretch of logic perhaps, but interesting nonetheless.

It was disturbing to me how difficult things were even in calm ish conditions alongside. **** fell everywere. I lost stuff. Gear fell out if allegedly secure spots. Headlights fell off my head. I pinched my fingers in lines and buckles. An allegedly capable and trained guy, and it was a sobering experience.

I slept (badly) on that for a long time.

Now, kids and family are on the boat all the time. We do long & overnight runs, short handed usually. Usually without enough careful prep time. Do I have a life raft? You’re damn right I do. I have every damn piece of lifesaving hardware I can afford. None of them are perfect, none of them will do it all. But dammit, if I’m in charge of these peoples lives and the **** just hit the fan, I’d pay just about anything for lifesaving gear.

I’ve had those nightmares where we are going down for whatever reason, and I look at my family, cold, hurt, scared and in shock; and say ‘sorry guys. Couldn’t afford a life raft so get into the dinghy and start bailing. We’ll be ok’.

For sure they are horrible places to be. For sure they are stupidly expensive. But for me it’s not about whether the liferaft is better than a properly outfitted dinghy. Or a rescue pod. Or anything else.

When the **** hits the fan and lives matter, i want every tool in the box available to me; and to me this includes a liferaft.

There is no prize or award for surviving without a raft. You are no less a sailor.

Increasing the odds of survival is all that matters. Again, to me, that means including a liferaft.

Ymmv!

[GARRYOWEN]

So called "life rafts" are completely unnecessary................until they are completely necessary.

[Viking Sailor]

What words would you use to justify not carrying a life raft to a grieving love one?

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Viking Sailor

What words would you use to justify not carrying a life raft to a grieving love one?

Yes, that's what the marketing departments do, rely on feelings. Not to mention anything how dangerous those things are. Of course if the alternative is PFD then a life raft is a winner but compared for good dinghy it's a false promise of security.

BR Teddy

[poiu]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Ken, I suggested a US raft because I think you have run out of time for a UK one. It would have to go air mail and the courier will have a fit when they realise a liferaft has flares and a co2 cylinder in it for a flight on an aircraft.

If you go the dinghy route then a really good grab bag and a couple of 20L water containers 3/4 full so they float will be high on your list and mounted for quick release.

Should be a good trip, YT video?

You can’t airfreight a liferaft. I tried to do it with persistence. Endless brick walls.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by poiu

You can’t airfreight a dinghy. I tried to do it with persistence. Endless brick walls.

Life raft I can understand with flares and a CO2 bottle, but a new Dinghy in a cardboard box?

Pete

[Suijin]

This is completely and utterly a matter of your tolerance for risk.

It's a fact that some people on well found boats have been saved by a life raft when weather or fire or some other incident has forced them to use it. Some subset of those people would not have survived if they were in an open RIB dinghy.

Yes, you probably have a better chance of being struck by lightning than needing your life raft. Then again you probably don't continue on around the golf course when a thunderstorm descends on you.

If life rafts were $1 everyone would carry one, but they are not. They are a lot of money for something you will "almost certainly" never use, which gives most rational minds a workout when it comes to deliberation. The choice is personal and psychological, not statistical.

[poiu]

As to using a dinghy as a liferaft, try it first. Go in moderately windy ocean conditions in a typical little rib and see how it is for you. I’ve done it inadvertently a few times and regretted it badly each time. They are barely seaworthy. I’d trust a liferaft much more to not get rolled, to keep you warm and dry.

Fire and collision are the scariest hazards. Once you have lost control of a fire you can have less than a minute if unlucky to abandon ship. With a collision with a ship, maybe less time still. A liferaft can be deployed in a few seconds. A pump up dingy not so. That may make all the difference.

[poiu]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Life raft I can understand with flares and a CO2 bottle, but a new Dinghy in a cardboard box?

Pete

Of course. Now corrected thanks.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by poiu

As to using a dinghy as a liferaft, try it first. Go in moderately windy ocean conditions in a typical little rib and see how it is for you. I’ve done it inadvertently a few times and regretted it badly each time. They are barely seaworthy. I’d trust a liferaft much more to not get rolled, to keep you warm and dry.

Fire and collision are the scariest hazards. Once you have lost control of a fire you can have less than a minute if unlucky to abandon ship. With a collision with a ship, maybe less time still. A liferaft can be deployed in a few seconds. A pump up dingy not so. That may make all the difference.

The pumped up dinghy would be pre-inflated and ready to deploy by simply cutting a line, whereas with the life raft I’d be dependent of the device to self-inflate. I’ve sat in tenders many times close to shore in wavy condtions while waiting to go diving. It’s no different than I’d expect from a life raft.

Anyone care to add to the discussion regarding the build quality difference dinghy vs the life raft? As I remember, even cruise ships rely on their hard everyday tenders as primary safety rescue devices and the inflatable canisters as secondaries.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Viking Sailor

What words would you use to justify not carrying a life raft to a grieving love one?

I’m deciding between dinghy and life raft, not between life raft and having nothing.

We also have the lengthy list of safety items outlined in post #1 which includes drysuits and survival suits to be worn while in the dinghy.

[Franziska]

".. I’ve sat in tenders many times close to shore in wavy condtions while waiting to go diving. It’s no different than I’d expect from a life raft... "

For how many hours in how high waves?
With the added open question of perhaps no-one showing up to pick you up?

For 48 hours at a force 11 with sky high waves probably not very safe unless you kit your dinghy out like a Portland Pudgy.
How about scorching sunlight, no shelter, no space to lie down?

I'm not saying a raft is comfortable, but tge protection from the elements looks much better to me.

Ken, you easily spent a huge amount of money on your the O63.
Why do you not take 2 dinghies and a 4person raft?
It can not be a money or space question for someone with an Oyster 63. Seems irrational, at least to me.

Now if you would own an 8m boat with limited funds, I could understand that you ponder the yes or no. But in your case?

Anyway, have a safe trip, fair winds and lots of fun with the new yacht.

[Kenomac]

I think sometimes we need to draw the line on just how much safety gear is really necessary? We must have 20 fire extinguishers onboard not including a complete fire suppression system in the engine room/compartment. The list goes on and on.... when is enough, enough?

When does it become simply expensive redundancy?

[Sojourner]

62 foot boat and you don't have space or cash for a raft? Fit the thing on the rail like we have on our 53 footer... If you do go down in sunny calm conditions.you can always choose the dinghy. But if you're dismasted and holed in the kind of weather and waves that could dismast a 62 footer, you'll be happy you can zip into something that will contain your flailing bodies as well as your ditch bag and water and gear......