% legal holding tank dumping?

[mvweebles]

I live near the ICW, St Pete FL. On any given weekend, there are thousands of boats on the waterway, many with a half dozen or more people aboard. Yet the pump out stations are usually wide open. Few venture out an inlet past the 3 nm limit for legal dumping. I doubt many have LectraSan MSDs aboard.

No way to know for sure, but anyone have a guess of percentage of holding tank dumps that are not legal? If pressed, I'd guess 25% or more.

Peter

[Nicholson58]

In the eastern Caribbean there are almost zero pump-outs. The existing pump outs are very expensive. One in the BVI in 2016 warned $70 US to pump our 20 gallon tank. Boats hang at anchor for weeks, especially in COVID with limited opportunity to transit, months on the hook. Most places have stated offshore pumping requirements but never enforced, even in Bonaire. If they are serious, they should charge a reasonable fee, operate a pump out boat. It is ludicrous to expect 1000 boats in Le Marin to go 5 miles out when one boat alone could handle it.

Many US east coast venues operate a poop boat. This is way better than docking to pump.

[Mike OReilly]

Can't really say. I know in the Great Lakes I never knew of anyone NOT getting legally pumped out, but I'm sure it does happen. At my previous home marina in NL I doubt if anyone went the legal 3-mile distance. And there were ZERO pump out facilities.

At least most had the decency to sail/motor out into the big bay, but there was one large motor cruiser that was in constant use at the dock. Once a week they'd fire up the big engines, and motor their way just outside the marina entrance. They'd do a few spins around, then back in. Took me a little while to figure out what their weekly tiny excursions were all about.

I agree with Nicholson58; if you don't make it easy, and fairly cheap, people will dump their crap elsewhere. It's why I never use our sea water pump when in confined places where many other boats are docked or anchored. You just know what's going over the side.

[more]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

At my previous home marina in NL I doubt if anyone went the legal 3-mile distance. And there were ZERO pump out facilities.

At least most had the decency to sail/motor out into the big bay, but there was one large motor cruiser that was in constant use at the dock. Once a week they'd fire up the big engines, and motor their way just outside the marina entrance. They'd do a few spins around, then back in. Took me a little while to figure out what their weekly tiny excursions were all about.

in Croatia but also in all countries signed Marpol convention. empty black tank 12 nm from shore all pleasure and commercial ship, ship with waste reverse osmosis factory installed 3 nm from shore. penality fine 1300$ 11000$ and extra skipper/captain 300-900$
i empty in open sea nobody around me 1nm and no helicopter in air couple nm, preferred time night. but my tank is small 70 liter and 20 liter poop.

[patrickbarbary]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Can't really say. I know in the Great Lakes I never knew of anyone NOT getting legally pumped out, but I'm sure it does happen. At my previous home marina in NL I doubt if anyone went the legal 3-mile distance. And there were ZERO pump out facilities.

At least most had the decency to sail/motor out into the big bay, but there was one large motor cruiser that was in constant use at the dock. Once a week they'd fire up the big engines, and motor their way just outside the marina entrance. They'd do a few spins around, then back in. Took me a little while to figure out what their weekly tiny excursions were all about.

I agree with Nicholson58; if you don't make it easy, and fairly cheap, people will dump their crap elsewhere. It's why I never use our sea water pump when in confined places where many other boats are docked or anchored. You just know what's going over the side.

Great lakes and saltwater are two very different mediums...

[Midwesterner]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Can't really say. I know in the Great Lakes I never knew of anyone NOT getting legally pumped out, but I'm sure it does happen. At my previous home marina in NL I doubt if anyone went the legal 3-mile distance. And there were ZERO pump out facilities......

......I agree with Nicholson58; if you don't make it easy, and fairly cheap, people will dump their crap elsewhere. It's why I never use our sea water pump when in confined places where many other boats are docked or anchored. You just know what's going over the side.

Michigan and Ohio are two states that subscribe to the US Clean Vessel pumpout grant program. Sadly, it appears that, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania, do not.

My state of Missouri also does not. Now that I am more aware of the program, I am going to do some research as to why my state does not, and if it is a problem. We have marinas on the Mississippi River, and on our big recreational lakes in the Ozarks.

The program stimulates small business, in that anybody interested in starting a mobile pump out service, can get the grant money for the equipment and maintenance

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by Midwesterner

Michigan and Ohio are two states that subscribe to the US Clean Vessel pumpout grant program. Sadly, it appears that, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania, do not.

My state of Missouri also does not. Now that I am more aware of the program, I am going to do some research as to why my state does not, and if it is a problem. We have marinas on the Mississippi River, and on our big recreational lakes in the Ozarks.

The program stimulates small business, in that anybody interested in starting a mobile pump out service, can get the grant money for the equipment and maintenance

Great Lakes are Zero Discharge Zones with zero tolerance. Pump outs are plentiful and cheap. $5.00 for us in Muskegon back in 2016. We tipped the operator $5. We installed an Airhead in one of our three heads and padlocked our through hulls. If you pump out or have an unsecured J-valve or port the fines are automatic. If Michigan opted not to participate in a federal hand out it was probably attached to some sort of Fed oversight or strings that made sense in sea water but none on the inland seas. Since many states opt out, it is probably with reason, but all comply fully.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Can't really say. I know in the Great Lakes I never knew of anyone NOT getting legally pumped out, but I'm sure it does happen. At my previous home marina in NL I doubt if anyone went the legal 3-mile distance. And there were ZERO pump out facilities.

At least most had the decency to sail/motor out into the big bay, but there was one large motor cruiser that was in constant use at the dock. Once a week they'd fire up the big engines, and motor their way just outside the marina entrance. They'd do a few spins around, then back in. Took me a little while to figure out what their weekly tiny excursions were all about.

I agree with Nicholson58; if you don't make it easy, and fairly cheap, people will dump their crap elsewhere. It's why I never use our sea water pump when in confined places where many other boats are docked or anchored. You just know what's going over the side.

I'd say 20 - 25% of the thousands of boats I've surveyed in the Great Lakes were pumping overboard. I think of the hundreds of huge regattas I've witnessed with 3 - 10 people on board at PCYC with dock cart loads of beer and never saw one go the the pumpout when they came back in.

Pumpouts in the NY State Canal System are either free or $2 .... In the Ontario canals .... $30 - $40. Whadayathink is happening ?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

I'd say 20 - 25% of the thousands of boats I've surveyed in the Great Lakes were pumping overboard. I think of the hundreds of huge regattas I've witnessed with 3 - 10 people on board at PCYC with dock cart loads of beer and never saw one go the the pumpout when they came back in.

Pumpouts in the NY State Canal System are either free or $2 .... In the Ontario canals .... $30 - $40. Whadayathink is happening ?

There are some things I just don't want to know ...🤮.

And is that really the going fee for a pump out in Ontario these days!?! It's been nearly a decade since I've had to worry about getting one, I guess I've lost touch with the price. I'll have to add that to my composting head "advantages" list. At that price, even the more expensive commercial versions could pay for themselves over a few seasons.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

I'd say 20 - 25% of the thousands of boats I've surveyed in the Great Lakes were pumping overboard. I think of the hundreds of huge regattas I've witnessed with 3 - 10 people on board at PCYC with dock cart loads of beer and never saw one go the the pumpout when they came back in.

Pumpouts in the NY State Canal System are either free or $2 .... In the Ontario canals .... $30 - $40. Whadayathink is happening ?

I'd guess the same in places I've boated - SF Bay and ICW. My hunch is many people try to follow the rules, but when it's not convenient, they hit the macerator switch knowing chance of being caught is near zero. I'd guess the percentage of people who are >95% compliant is pretty low (excludes cruisers in locations without rules)

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Can't really say. I know in the Great Lakes I never knew of anyone NOT getting legally pumped out, but I'm sure it does happen.

Maybe on the Canadian side...but really didn't notice significantly different habits on saltwater vs freshwater. The pumpouts don't get used nearly enough to cover all the boats on the water, so I'm betting a strong majority dump on the lakes.

Of course, get out a few miles and not much difference in the impact fresh vs salt even if it's not legal.

This really is a situation where the old slogan "the solution to pollution is dilution" really applies. Dispersed widely in open water, it quickly breaks down and causes no issues. It's when it's concentrated that sewage becomes an issue. Particularly if that concentration is in close proximity to people in the water.

Really is a situation where targeted laws that focus on the underlying issue would make far more sense and get better compliance than over reach laws that make it difficult to comply. When you set up rules that are difficult to comply with, you can't be shocked when people don't comply and once people stop complying many will take it to the point where it does cause issues (such as dumping in the marina rather than a mile or two offshore).

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Maybe on the Canadian side...but really didn't notice significantly different habits on saltwater vs freshwater. The pumpouts don't get used nearly enough to cover all the boats on the water, so I'm betting a strong majority dump on the lakes.

Guess I've always hung out with a better class of boater . Seriously... in all my time on the Great Lakes, I never knew of anyone who dumped illegally. I guess it's not the kind of thing people would brag about, and I didn't tend to cruise with others a lot ... but honestly, I've never knew it to happen.

Now that I'm on briny seas it's a completely different story. As I say, where I currently cruise, I don't think there's a pump out service to be had at all. Everyone dumps overboard, and many don't bother to go very far. I don't think it's a problem here, but that's largely because there are so few recreational boaters around.

Originally Posted by valhalla360

This really is a situation where the old slogan "the solution to pollution is dilution" really applies. Dispersed widely in open water, it quickly breaks down and causes no issues. It's when it's concentrated that sewage becomes an issue. Particularly if that concentration is in close proximity to people in the water.

Really is a situation where targeted laws that focus on the underlying issue would make far more sense and get better compliance than over reach laws that make it difficult to comply. When you set up rules that are difficult to comply with, you can't be shocked when people don't comply and once people stop complying many will take it to the point where it does cause issues (such as dumping in the marina rather than a mile or two offshore).

I agree in general, but I also think we need to be careful about dismissing our impacts. This is the same story we tell ourselves over and over:

• "We can take all the fish we want because the schools are so massive. "
  
• "We can cut all the trees we want because the forests go on forever. "
  
• "We can dump all the pollution we want into the water and air because the atmosphere and oceans are so vast."

We need to learn from past mistakes.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Guess I've always hung out with a better class of boater . Seriously... in all my time on the Great Lakes, I never knew of anyone who dumped illegally. I guess it's not the kind of thing people would brag about, and I didn't tend to cruise with others a lot ... but honestly, I've never knew it to happen.

Now that I'm on briny seas it's a completely different story. As I say, where I currently cruise, I don't think there's a pump out service to be had at all. Everyone dumps overboard, and many don't bother to go very far. I don't think it's a problem here, but that's largely because there are so few recreational boaters around.



I agree in general, but I also think we need to be careful about dismissing our impacts. This is the same story we tell ourselves over and over:

• "We can take all the fish we want because the schools are so massive. "
  
• "We can cut all the trees we want because the forests go on forever. "
  
• "We can dump all the pollution we want into the water and air because the atmosphere and oceans are so vast."

We need to learn from past mistakes.

Well, if the standard is someone bragging about it or it never happened, obviously it's not a problem anywhere we have been.

I'm going on observation. When I see a single pump out in a 300slip marina that services maybe 10 boats a day on the weekends and 1-2 on weekdays and there are nearby marinas without pump outs, I know most aren't using the pump out.

As far as the end argument, we didn't kill the cod fisheries with hook & line fishing and the stray settler building a log cabin didn't clear our forests. It was the industrial scale of fishing and logging and is the exact distinction we are discussing. Boaters aren't the ones causing the issue and have a negligible impact.

As far as pollution, first we have to define what is pollution. Sewage isn't even a pollutant unless it's in high concentrations. Once outside of the marina or small enclosed bodies of water, boaters are simply incapable of discharging enough to make it a pollutant.

[lo2jones]

https://baygreen.net/?gclid=EAIaIQob...iAAEgI6LPD_BwE

BayGreen is not expensive, but it could be government subsidized making it cheaper.

[Sailmonkey]

I’d be willing to bet that most of those aren’t dumping. They’re weekend boats, used a few hours on Saturday and then tied to the dock and left or lifted into the rack. At some point during the week marina staff or other pump out service sucks them dry.

There’s still going to be a small percentage that’s dumping though.