How seriously is the 2M dumping policy enforced? (Yet another poo question)

[dustman]

Originally Posted by paralog

Why is it the more i read the discussions on these forums that I am starting to believe that it would be wise not to visit the land of the free (USA) as it seem there are regulations and rules everywhere, so much so it makes you afraid to even consider a visit.
I got **** from a customs office in Alaska because I did not check back into a town I had just left 3 days earlier, do they make drivers check into and out of every town.
Most of us are not criminals so stop treating law abiding folks like them.

Part of the reason I can't wait to get the hell out of here. You can't do anything here without shelling out a bunch of money or risking consequences, even if it has no negative impact on anyone. God forbid we do anything without shelling out money to some some rich chump who already has way more money than they need. It's the land of the free, but you have to pay for it. A big fat oxymoron. I hope it is different elsewhere.



Excuse me, this kind of rant probably has no place on this forum.


There really are a lot of good things about the US, but you have to take the good with the bad.

[paralog]

Originally Posted by dustman

Part of the reason I can't wait to get the hell out of here. You can't do anything here without shelling out a bunch of money or risking consequences, even if it has no negative impact on anyone. God forbid we do anything without shelling out money to some some rich chump who already has way more money than they need. It's the land of the free, but you have to pay for it. A big fat oxymoron. I hope it is different elsewhere.



Excuse me, this kind of rant probably has no place on this forum.


There really are a lot of good things about the US, but you have to take the good with the bad.

yes it is the good things I do not want to miss and an Americans I have met from Alaskan fishermen to other boaters have been very nice. Your country is not the only country that has well intentioned rules and regulations. Canada has lots of them as well but we have no one to enforce them.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Eder

City studies have determined the amount of sewage will not be lethal for fish populations or affect drinking water for Montreal or downstream residents. It has also pointed out that dumping untreated sewage is common. Victoria dumps 30 billion litres of sewage into the Pacific annually,



Quebec’s Environment Minister, David Heurtel, applauded Ottawa’s work in the file and said it “confirmed” everything the province has been doing.


Can't make this stuff up!

Well and that is more or less true. People think about this stuff based on the gross factor and their emotions without really understand the volumes and concentrations involved. Even billions of liters discharged into a body of water which is tiny compared to the ocean, does not amount to an environmental disaster. You can even drink the water downstream!


Small boat discharges in a decent sized body of water, especially one with tides, are like a fart in the Astrodome. Utterly meaningless so long as you are at least a few cables offshore and not near any shellfish beds. The laws should reflect that, and not some politician's ick factor impulses. Make it a mile for good measure.



Thank God for the RYA. The UK considered adopting some rules about small boat discharges around the UK coast, and the RYA commissioned a big study which scientifically proved that there would be zero environmental benefit to adopting such rules, while making the sport more expensive. The idea was dropped.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

This is supposed to end sometime this year. You're welcome.

I really hope they actually do it this time we ( the residents in puget sound area) bave been hearing this same song and dance for years.

[Jamme]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Thank God for the RYA. The UK considered adopting some rules about small boat discharges around the UK coast, and the RYA commissioned a big study which scientifically proved that there would be zero environmental benefit to adopting such rules, while making the sport more expensive. The idea was dropped.

Thank you Dock. I just read this article; it sounds to me as the pure voice of reason...

https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-adv...anagement.aspx

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jamme

Thank you Dock. I just read this article; it sounds to me as the pure voice of reason...

https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-adv...anagement.aspx

Indeed. The RYA is a real class act.


Another point which has not been mentioned in this discussion is MACERATION. Dumping a whole holding tank at one time is a whole lot worse than discharging one flush at a time. Still nothing wrong with it if you're not close to shore, but what makes sewage harmless is dilution, and it gets diluted and broken down more slowly if you concentrate it.


By the same token, MACERATION greatly accelerates the dispersal and breaking down of solid waste. Like 100 times probably. If there were to be a law which required small boats to macerate their toilet waste before discharge, I would absolutely understand that. That is huge benefit for little cost.

[Mike OReilly]

It's an old adage, but very true: The solution to pollution is dilution. I completely agree.

Generally speaking the best way to deal with cruisers' effluent is dumping over the side in areas of good flow/good volume. The "3-mile offshore" law is a simple rule of thumb that achieves this. But it's easy to achieve in other ways.

In area where flow/volume is limited, and especially in areas which also combine this with high density of people, it makes sense to have some sort of holding or processing system on board. This includes protected 'no discharge' zones (NDZ).

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by dustman

I hope it is different elsewhere.

It's not.


Oh, I mean, it is different in terms of what you have to pay for, and who you have to pay it to. And maybe there are some places where it is just a little less (and there are plenty of places where it is a LOT MORE!). In the end, though, no matter where you go in this world, you still have to pay to play.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

It's an old adage, but very true: The solution to pollution is dilution. I completely agree.

Generally speaking the best way to deal with cruisers' effluent is dumping over the side in areas of good flow/good volume. The "3-mile offshore" law is a simple rule of thumb that achieves this. But it's easy to achieve in other ways.

In area where flow/volume is limited, and especially in areas which also combine this with high density of people, it makes sense to have some sort of holding or processing system on board. This includes protected 'no discharge' zones (NDZ).

I'm OK with the 3 mile rule. It's a bit overkill -- a mile I'm sure would be plenty -- but if we make it 3 to be conservative I don't really have a problem with that.



NDZ's that go for miles from shore and in bodies of water where municipalities discharge billions of liters are just -- well, idiotic hardly expresses it. Asinine.

[Hoodsail]

O-Rielly - thanks, will work on my written joke skills and increase use of visuals to convey same.
Newhaul - list of drug side effects....yep, read many FDA negotiated package inserts on numerous drugs, including anti-diarrheals...keep in mind that any adverse event that occurred in a drug trial submitted to the agency for labeling must be reported, so if i am a subject in a study investigating a new topical ointment for rash and I drive my car off a cliff and die, my death must be reported in the clinical trial results...

No question that when speaking of children and medications, an area we study infrequently due to obvious reasons, their reactions can be completely paradoxical to the adults'. Classic is Benadryl (diphenhydramine) will make an adult sleepy, but may lead to excitement in kids.

[RaymondR]

They're going about it the wrong way. If cities rebranded sewage as "pre-nutrified" fresh water they could probably sell it to market gardeners and orchardists and make a profit on it's disposal.

[newhaul]

On a real sad note
https://www.heraldnet.com/news/meth-...n-puget-sound/

[Dsanduril]

If you want to put some “yuck” factor in perspective...

The Mississippi River serves as the primary drinking water source for over 50 cities and 20 million people. Along its entire course the dilution factor averages between 25 and 50 (depends on season and flow); i.e. 2 to 4 percent of the river is sewage wastewater (doesn’t count industrial wastewater). Average treatment level of discharged sewage is in the mid 90s percent (average with much tertiary treatment combined with raw sewage spills). IOW, in every 1000 gallons of drinking water pulled from the river there’s 1 to 2 gallons of full strength sewage

[Dsanduril]

New Zealand actually uses sewage sampling to measure/evaluate/track drug usage.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/112...s-in-the-water

Sure they’re not the only place, and sadly many of these compounds (and many, many others) pass right through current treatment plants.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

If you want to put some “yuck” factor in perspective...

The Mississippi River serves as the primary drinking water source for over 50 cities and 20 million people. Along its entire course the dilution factor averages between 25 and 50 (depends on season and flow); i.e. 2 to 4 percent of the river is sewage wastewater (doesn’t count industrial wastewater). Average treatment level of discharged sewage is in the mid 90s percent (average with much tertiary treatment combined with raw sewage spills). IOW, in every 1000 gallons of drinking water pulled from the river there’s 1 to 2 gallons of full strength sewage

And yet people living along the Mississippi are not particularly getting sick from it.


Sewage is yuck but we shouldn't make rules on it based on emotion. It's not nuclear waste; once diluted to a certain level it's not harmful. The level of dilution of small boat waste discharged even a cable from shore, much less a mile, is many orders of magnitude greater than this.



Well actually even nuclear waste is harmless when sufficiently diluted. It just takes more.