Digital switches

[Notyetsinking]

I have been looking to redo my boats electrical system in preparation for lithium batteries, but the lithium’s have been postponed due to the old batteries completely crapping out. However, the electrical system still needs to be done, and I stumbled upon mastervolts czone digital switches. I absolutely love this and don’t particularly see many downsides here, especially considering the weight savings and reliability increases. I expect as a computer/electrical engineer my opinion on the matter will be a bit different from most on here, but want to hear people’s thoughts.

[tkeithlu]

There is reliability of two sorts. Some mechanical switches corrode, but then, we've learned to deal with that. Sealed switches are reliable in the millions of cycles range, far more than you will ever experience on a boat. You just have to keep them out of salt water. Digital switches won't need maintenance, but anything electronic on a boat needs to be protected. And, if the black box fails, as electronics do from time to time, you could lose a bunch of switches at the same time. And then, should we talk about lightning?

Personally, I don't see a big advantage, and I do see some potential problems. Be aware that I am an outlier biased in favor of separation when it comes to glass cockpits.

[Dsanduril]

In principle the idea of czone seems interesting, especially being able to remotely switch so you don't have to run all cables back-and-forth to one or more switching panels. Saves on wire, voltage drop, penetrations.... But also more than we need on our boat, which is really rather simple, so we haven't gone there.

One cautionary anecdote, we were sailing one night in company with a czone-equipped boat along the Great Barrier Reef. Suddenly they disappeared. AIS gone. Running lights gone. Turned out later autopilot gone, along with everything else. Post-mortem it turned out that someone had fat-fingered the "away from boat" setting on the iPad, that turned off everything except the bilge pumps.

Moral of the story is to be careful with something that can basically open all your breakers (in the traditional panel sense) all at once. Certainly a main fuse blowing can do that, but not by hitting the wrong virtual button on the tablet.

Not saying I wouldn't use them, just that with more complexity and convenience more thought about the potential fault conditions is required.

[Jammer]

* increased reliance on NMEA2000 system, which can fail
* increased complexity of the NMEA2000 system which complicates troubleshooting when problems occur

* greater reliance on parts not readily available in remote areas
* if the chartplotter is used as the controller, then the chartplotter will be turned on more often and will consume more power
* typically poorer ergonomics as the system results in many identical switches in one place rather than task-specific switches in separate location
* usually added cost since most loads on a boat are separately breakered and the breaker can be used as a switch

[Notyetsinking]

Originally Posted by tkeithlu

There is reliability of two sorts. Some mechanical switches corrode, but then, we've learned to deal with that. Sealed switches are reliable in the millions of cycles range, far more than you will ever experience on a boat. You just have to keep them out of salt water. Digital switches won't need maintenance, but anything electronic on a boat needs to be protected. And, if the black box fails, as electronics do from time to time, you could lose a bunch of switches at the same time. And then, should we talk about lightning?

Personally, I don't see a big advantage, and I do see some potential problems. Be aware that I am an outlier biased in favor of separation when it comes to glass cockpits.

Electronics do fail, but the failure rate is statistically much lower than there mechanical counterparts. It is a new technology in in marine industry, but cars and airplanes are now doing it, though safety critical stuff in airplanes is still mechanical.

However, for me, and I know I will certainly be an outlier here, there are two massive benefits:
1). Weight: Having everything connected to what is essentially two wires will massively reduce the weight contributed by the electrical system. For people looking to do Ocean crossings on a 30,000lbs boat, that won't be such an issue. However, my boat is 12,500 pounds, so the several hundred I would save would be very helpful.
2). Debugging: This is where I think I will differ heavily from most on here; as you mentioned, there will be no mechanical failure with a system like this. This for me is its biggest advantage; I can log into the system and identify the problem and fix it digitally. Keep in mind, I hacked my cars keyless system so I could use my phone as the key, so my comfort level is a bit different here.
2a).Problem planning: Related to the above point, but since there is no mechanical failure possible, I can stress test the system to identify all issues before undertaking any substantial voyage. This would be a massive effort, but doable.

As for the lightning, I have seen that mentioned before. However, I don't entirely understand the unique application to digital switches. Are people saying the radiating electro-magnetic field generated from a lightning strike distort the bits within the can-bus network, rendering it in-operable? Or just that lightning would fry the system? In the first case, I imagine a reset would be needed but then everything would be fine. In the latter, well a mechanical system wouldn't do too much better.

[Notyetsinking]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

In principle the idea of czone seems interesting, especially being able to remotely switch so you don't have to run all cables back-and-forth to one or more switching panels. Saves on wire, voltage drop, penetrations.... But also more than we need on our boat, which is really rather simple, so we haven't gone there.

One cautionary anecdote, we were sailing one night in company with a czone-equipped boat along the Great Barrier Reef. Suddenly they disappeared. AIS gone. Running lights gone. Turned out later autopilot gone, along with everything else. Post-mortem it turned out that someone had fat-fingered the "away from boat" setting on the iPad, that turned off everything except the bilge pumps.

Moral of the story is to be careful with something that can basically open all your breakers (in the traditional panel sense) all at once. Certainly a main fuse blowing can do that, but not by hitting the wrong virtual button on the tablet.

Not saying I wouldn't use them, just that with more complexity and convenience more thought about the potential fault conditions is required.

My boat is rather simple as well, but in need of a refit as the electrical system is less than brilliant. However, I would save a lot of weight, my batteries would last longer, and future add-ons would be much simpler.

Interesting story, but there seems to be a pretty simple safety feature there that would be a simple add . Given the systems integration with everything else on the boat, deny the 'away from boat' option when speed is over .5knts or something like that, or if the GPS coordinates have changed more than x distance in the last 5 minutes, deny the 'away from boat' request.
That is one of my favorite possibilities with something like this; the system can really grow with your needs. Admittedly, it seems your friend had to deal with some of the growing pains that come with new tech, as I expect a similar operation would need to be much more deliberate on a mechanical system. However, it allows for safety measures not possible with mechanical switches.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Notyetsinking

Electronics do fail, but the failure rate is statistically much lower than there mechanical counterparts. It is a new technology in in marine industry, but cars and airplanes are now doing it, though safety critical stuff in airplanes is still mechanical.

However, for me, and I know I will certainly be an outlier here, there are two massive benefits:
1). Weight: Having everything connected to what is essentially two wires will massively reduce the weight contributed by the electrical system. For people looking to do Ocean crossings on a 30,000lbs boat, that won't be such an issue. However, my boat is 12,500 pounds, so the several hundred I would save would be very helpful.
2). Debugging: This is where I think I will differ heavily from most on here; as you mentioned, there will be no mechanical failure with a system like this. This for me is its biggest advantage; I can log into the system and identify the problem and fix it digitally. Keep in mind, I hacked my cars keyless system so I could use my phone as the key, so my comfort level is a bit different here.
2a).Problem planning: Related to the above point, but since there is no mechanical failure possible, I can stress test the system to identify all issues before undertaking any substantial voyage. This would be a massive effort, but doable.

As for the lightning, I have seen that mentioned before. However, I don't entirely understand the unique application to digital switches. Are people saying the radiating electro-magnetic field generated from a lightning strike distort the bits within the can-bus network, rendering it in-operable? Or just that lightning would fry the system? In the first case, I imagine a reset would be needed but then everything would be fine. In the latter, well a mechanical system wouldn't do too much better.

::shrug:: I guess you believe what you want. I don't believe you're going to save a "several hundred pounds" of branch wiring because there isn't that much. I don't believe that the actual components you're planning to install are more reliable than the actual components you're planning to replace. I would be surprised to learn that the components you are going to install are free of mechanical parts.


There's been other separate discussion on the strategy of using heavy gauge wire around the boat and putting a breaker at each load. You can do that without using digital switching. You can use digital switching without doing that. They're separate. There are a number of problems with a heavy buss going around the boat that have been covered elsewhere with the main one being that if the buss is damaged at any point you lose all/many loads and have a problem that is difficult to troubleshoot. There is also the practical problem that there simply are not suitable marine wiring products available that allow you to take, say, a 12 gauge tap off a 6 gauge wire.

[Notyetsinking]

Originally Posted by Jammer

* increased reliance on NMEA2000 system, which can fail
- Everything can fail, and the failure rate for electronic systems is much much lower
* increased complexity of the NMEA2000 system which complicates troubleshooting when problems occur
-NMEA complexity growth is quite a bit lower than complexity growth in mechanical systems, and the 'troubleshooting' is substantially easier in the digital world, when the skillset is there. I am very good with computers, and reasonable with a voltmeter. If I were to be given a canbus and a circuit panel, and told to fix one, I'd pick the canbus every time.
* greater reliance on parts not readily available in remote areas
-Fair point, but this is a false equivalence. Digital, theoretically, would almost never need parts, certainly not like a mechanical system would at the very least. However, if it did, you are right, getting parts would be a bear.
* if the chartplotter is used as the controller, then the chartplotter will be turned on more often and will consume more power
-Fair point, though you could also access it over a wireless device through the nmea network. I haven't done any calculations on this, but I would be curious at where the 'break even' point would be on a power level.
* typically poorer ergonomics as the system results in many identical switches in one place rather than task-specific switches in separate location
-Well, no. Centralized system to MFD, with task-specific switches on each page, with diagnostic info for each task displayed on the page. If you want to be right where the action is, open it on your phone where the task is occurring.
* usually added cost since most loads on a boat are separately breakered and the breaker can be used as a switch

-Nope, the cost of a digital system is almost certainly much lower

[Notyetsinking]

Originally Posted by Jammer

::shrug:: I guess you believe what you want. I don't believe you're going to save a "several hundred pounds" of branch wiring because there isn't that much. I don't believe that the actual components you're planning to install are more reliable than the actual components you're planning to replace. I would be surprised to learn that the components you are going to install are free of mechanical parts.


There's been other separate discussion on the strategy of using heavy gauge wire around the boat and putting a breaker at each load. You can do that without using digital switching. You can use digital switching without doing that. They're separate. There are a number of problems with a heavy buss going around the boat that have been covered elsewhere with the main one being that if the buss is damaged at any point you lose all/many loads and have a problem that is difficult to troubleshoot. There is also the practical problem that there simply are not suitable marine wiring products available that allow you to take, say, a 12 gauge tap off a 6 gauge wire.

Wouldn't just be wiring but all of the equipment related to the current electrical system. Regardless, I think you are right the 'guess' of a couple hundred pounds is probably a bit off, I'll know when I do the calculations

Anyway, it is not a matter of 'believing'. It is a matter of understanding and looking for the best possible solution for my current situation. If get good information contrary to my current thesis, I have no problem adapting. I am intrigued by your heavy bus point; can you elaborate here? I was planning on having a centralized ground (obviously), with branches to task specific ground bus bars. Problem identification is one of the biggest things for system design in my application, so you certainly have my attention now.

I always like to get opinions from people who think differently from me, it is the only way to really figure out the issues in my plans

[Sandy Frank]

Originally Posted by Notyetsinking

I absolutely love this and don’t particularly see many downsides here, especially considering the weight savings and reliability increases. I expect as a computer/electrical engineer my opinion on the matter will be a bit different from most on here, but want to hear people’s thoughts.

I have a code regulated electronics manufacturing background, probably in similar quantities to mastervolt. Your thoughts would not be my thoughts.

I think you gotta have a big boat to get any convenience from digital switching.

[RaymondR]

I went off the fly by wire idea when a friend took me out on his 60' power boat and about a mile outside the harbor breakwaters everything on the boat shut down and we were left drifting about. After seeking circuit breakers all over the boat to reset he called the service technician who told him where the probable culprit was in a cupboard in a stateroom and he managed to get things cranked up again. The problem started when someone had left a sunroof open over the helm position and it rained.

However, if I ever built another boat I would wire it with heavy gauge ring mains for the nav and house supplies with another multi conductor tinned data cable ring main to control solid state relays or MOSFETS to do the individual appliance switching both locally or from a central control panel. I was horrified at how quickly the conduits filled up on my last boat and the present one has the same problem.

[Matt Johnson]

I highly recommend looking into Maretron's MPower system. Their 16 circuit system has built in manual mode switches that allow you to control it all without N2K right on the case itself.

What I like most is the programable aspects of these systems. I can program it to not allow the toilet to flush if the holding tank is full. I can have it switch the freshwater pump off if it runs for longer than desired or if the tank sensor shows that it is empty. If the batteries are low, it can prioritize circuits in different groups to maintain the remaining amps. It's a lot of power, but the redundancies make it reliable/safe.

Matt

[mcarthur]

Matt, that's the one I'm looking into as well. Very hard to source so far though, and few examples to go on in smaller (<100') vessels. I passed on the Czone as I learnt more, but I did look at the Yacht Devices version which is very basic meaning some advantages over Mpower - but still prefer the Mpower so far. Have you got one up and going?

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by mcarthur

Matt, that's the one I'm looking into as well. Very hard to source so far though, and few examples to go on in smaller (<100') vessels. I passed on the Czone as I learnt more, but I did look at the Yacht Devices version which is very basic meaning some advantages over Mpower - but still prefer the Mpower so far. Have you got one up and going?

No, but I got a full demo last week from Maretron. The system itself has been in use in other industries for a few years - it's just now that they are bringing it over to the RV/Marine world - so I don't feel there is going to be any hiccups as a new device/product since it is already pretty mature.


Matt

[Notyetsinking]

Originally Posted by Matt Johnson

I highly recommend looking into Maretron's MPower system. Their 16 circuit system has built in manual mode switches that allow you to control it all without N2K right on the case itself.

What I like most is the programable aspects of these systems. I can program it to not allow the toilet to flush if the holding tank is full. I can have it switch the freshwater pump off if it runs for longer than desired or if the tank sensor shows that it is empty. If the batteries are low, it can prioritize circuits in different groups to maintain the remaining amps. It's a lot of power, but the redundancies make it reliable/safe.

Matt

The programming for me is far and away the best aspect of these systems; I can take the generic system and completely tailor it to my boat. The level of customization allowed by digital switches is almost impossible for physical switches under the constraints of a normal budget. That, in tandem with the growth capabilities of networked switches, make it a pretty obvious choice without substantial evidence to suggest otherwise. I created this thread to see if there were any viable criticisms of the tech, but there doesn't seem to be anything outside of the normal fears of new technology.
As I drive a car that has steering and brakes handled via network (steering and brakes by wire), it seems the technology is more than capable of strict safety standards. I expect most on here put their lives in the hands of digital systems more often than they realize.

What do you like better about Maetron vs CZone? I was very impressed with CZone, and was planning on moving forward with that system.