Collapsing brokerage market for Monohulls

[seahag]

Originally Posted by n13L5

If you believe there's any kind of "recovery" in either the U.S. or Europe, you aren't seeing the drastically increasing difference between money in circulation vs goods produced. The leaders among the ~150 families controlling all banks and major corporations world wide (see Swiss university study) are just optimising the altitude for the other shoe to drop.

Banks earn ok during ordinary times, but if they can generate booms and busts, they do even better - privatised profits and socialised losses aren't some kind of accident. Its engineered that way. There has been no currency collapse in history, where Governments didn't cover the bankers at the expense of their population.

But what really gets their profits flowing is war. Lend money to all sides for weapons and suck the remaining populations of all involved countries dry with interest payments for decades afterwards.


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I don't see any prices on 'luxuries' of the (former) middle class recovering any time soon, cause all the money the central banks are "printing" is not going to Joe Public. Deflation will continue until "they" are" ready with whatever events they're currently trying to set up.

Not that it's the first post on this thread that seems to be completely based on a personal theory, with no basis of reality, but that sentence about "There has been no currency collapse in history, where Governments didn't cover the bankers at the expense of their population."is actually hilarious. Where did you come up with that? Do you think the bankers of Nazi Germany were protected when Deutschmarks by the bushel couldn't buy a loaf of day old bread? How much did your investment in South Vietnamese currency pan out when they were overrun by the communists? Did the Argentine bankers come out smelling like roses when their currency plummeted? These come to mind without any research on my end, but I bet there are dozens more situations where a country's money became worthless and their bankers were probably as bad off or worse than the rest of the populace.

The part about war developing a profit generation--no.

Sure, war creates profits for the technology producers it requires, but the overall effect is not profitable, in fact the reverse. The Soviet Union's Afghanistan involvement weakened their economy so much it was blamed for the collapse of their whole system. Not that the US learned anything from that...heh.

There have been several posts about the middle class. I don't disagree with most of the premises in those posts or even in this one, just the way it's being presented. Do you actually believe that people in the middle class buy new cruising sailboats? Haha, that seems like a good laugh!

Anyway, have a good day everyone, I'm starting out chuckling in puzzlement.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

And lets not forget, usually whenever a "great deal" is scored, someone else is being hurt.

Are "dog eat dog" bargaining tactics really appropriate when purchasing rec boats owned by families in dire straits?

Families will be in a lot less dire straits if they can sell the boat even at a loss rather than have it sitting there waiting for a higher offer while paying for upkeep.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

What I am saying, is that someone who circles the used boat market like a vulture, hoping to find some family in dire straits that has to sell well below market value today, so they can avoid foreclosure on their home tomorrow, (for what ever reason beyond the boat owners control) is well, not the type of person I want to be.

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If the family is looking at foreclosure on their home tomorrow, a low offer could be just the thing they need to fend that off until they can get their finances together.

Your high and mighty attitude would have the family lose their home and enter all kinds of other problems that likely result in them dumping the boat anyway.

Unless you are holding a gun to their head, you have no moral obligation to pay the price they ask. If it makes you feel bad to get a good deal, feel free to offer 50% over the asking price. That will make you feel extra special.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by seahag

... Do you actually believe that people in the middle class buy new cruising sailboats? Haha, that seems like a good laugh!

Anyway, have a good day everyone, I'm starting out chuckling in puzzlement.

I an confused at that one. What do you call middle class? I had a look to see what that is on America and it seems it is very wide, people that earn between 47 000 and 140 000 a year. If we consider the middle do you think that someone that earns 93 500 USD a year has not the money for a USD 300 000 boat?

Normally the ones that buy a new boat have one already and typically the buy a new one when his boat is between 5 and 8 years old, when the value is between 50% and 40% of the price of a new boat.

So they sell the boat or deliver it as part of the trade, have an initial entry for the new boat of about 120 000usd and they will pay the new boat in 8 years. That with a 8% rate interest will give about 2025 euros a month out of a monthly income of 7192 euros, less than 1/3.

Maybe there is a basic diference regarding US and Europe in what regards middle class: In Europe the number of middle class couples on the age to buy a new boat (between 40 and 70) that work, I mean the two work, is much bigger than on US, or at least it seems to me. There are countries on Europe where that is almost a rarity, I mean a women that takes only care of the house and children. Two earning money makes much more easy to buy a boat

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Tayana42

I remember some years ago when seminars on business management used to talk about doing what was best for all stakeholders...owners, stockholders, customers, employees and communities. You don't hear much of that kind of thinking today.

Which is why 1% of the people have 50% of the money. I have noticed over the years that many people with lots of money have no real true friends. In the end we are all about what differences we made in other people's lives, we are after all a very social animal. There are many ways to be rich and money is only one of them, and not really a great one in the end.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

If the family is looking at foreclosure on their home tomorrow, a low offer could be just the thing they need to fend that off until they can get their finances together.

Your high and mighty attitude would have the family lose their home and enter all kinds of other problems that likely result in them dumping the boat anyway.

Unless you are holding a gun to their head, you have no moral obligation to pay the price they ask. If it makes you feel bad to get a good deal, feel free to offer 50% over the asking price. That will make you feel extra special.

Obviously, an offer close to what the boat is really worth is what they need. A low ball may be what they will take with the proverbial gun to their head. It is so easy to take advantage of some one and then to justify it, because they had no better alternative readily available to them.

[paxfish]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Do you really have to hurt the people less fortunate, over a boat?

"If I don't somebody else will", doesn't cut it for me. I don't aspire to be that person, that is oh so easy to become, using weak justification for intentionally hurting others.

"hurting" them? Come on.

You make an offer. They take it or not. Life goes on.

It is YOUR choice to get pulled into a stranger's story. You Sir, are the buyer that many hope for!

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by paxfish

"hurting" them? Come on.

You make an offer. They take it or not. Life goes on.

It is YOUR choice to get pulled into a stranger's story. You Sir, are the buyer that many hope for!

I agree with you but isn't it nice to know that there is at least a small handful of people on this earth that think like him?

[Byrdman]

Originally Posted by Polux

Maybe there is a basic diference regarding US and Europe in what regards middle class: In Europe the number of middle class couples on the age to buy a new boat (between 40 and 70) that work, I mean the two work, is much bigger than on US, or at least it seems to me. There are countries on Europe where that is almost a rarity, I mean a women that takes only care of the house and children. Two earning money makes much more easy to buy a boat

IMO, the majority of middle class families in the US have both parents working once the kids get to elementary school. A lot of the times, this still is not enough to buy a $300K boat because the average middle class family is covered up with credit card debt, auto loans, mortgage, student loans, etc. and has no real savings.

I think I read where the average middle class family in the US has less than $6000 in cash in a savings outside of retirement accounts. Most of the people I know have $10K-$100K fishing boats with 10-15 year loans to match.

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by n13L5

Women are a much better financial proposition than boats: They will pick up the tab as often as not, while the ghost in the boat will never pay for anything.

Less moody than the weather and you'll have seven little children, that will take care of you when you're old, while your boat will just drown you

It would appear that we have vastly differing life experiences.

[paxfish]

Originally Posted by Byrdman

IMO, the majority of middle class families in the US have both parents working once the kids get to elementary school. A lot of the times, this still is not enough to buy a $300K boat because the average middle class family is covered up with credit card debt, auto loans, mortgage, student loans, etc. and has no real savings.

I think I read where the average middle class family in the US has less than $6000 in cash in a savings outside of retirement accounts. Most of the people I know have $10K-$100K fishing boats with 10-15 year loans to match.

I don't know the real numbers, but foolish levels of consumption for sure. Carrying debt beyond mortgage debt is just nuts. Those levels of debt knocked millions off their feet in 2009. And in the US, tripling our national debt since 2007 has made the rise out of recession an arduous process.

The net-net is a reduction of individual wealth across the board.

None of that bodes well for the recreational boating sector.

[hsi88]

do you think that someone that earns 93 500 USD a year has not the money for a USD 300 000 boat?

Don't know about Europe, but someone making $100K (or even twice that) cannot afford a $300K boat. Not unless this is their only expense and in the U.S. this is almost never the case. We still have a home to pay for and kids to send to college and medical bills that our lousy work insurance plans do not cover. Throw in a $50K loan for a car and that does not leave much for a boat. That's why I own a '77 Cat 30.

[alansmith]

[QUOTE=Brooderman;2248319]"I think we're still in that stage where the sellers think they have value in their boats, buyers think they don't and the difference in opinion is the cause of few sales."



"And at the very bottom of the market, what happens to the 40' boat that is for sale for $35K that needs a 20K refit. How far from being not worth the effort is it? "

Brooderman...you hit the nail on the head with this quote. I have been looking at some very nice Freedom cat-ketch boats for weeks. All in the 40 K range. All of them in very nice condition with the exception of 30-40 year old diesels. When I look at the repower aspects of it plus sails you are at least 25-30k out of pocket. So, is that sweet little boat really a 40k dollar boat? Or is it really a 25k dollar boat that will become a 40K dollar boat once you cough up 20K (or more)? I have sold boats in the past. You better be thinking about your exit strategy long before you enter this arena. Guys will over price their boats and eat storage and maintenance fees for years.

In correspondence with an agent in BVI right now. The advertisement said the boat had a new engine. My Radar focused in on target. Opened up the link and read about the boat. The engine was put in almost 10 years ago. I pinged the broker. Waz up? He wrote back that this boat has been for sale for a long time and seller will not budge off of his price. This is not a half million dollar boat. The boat is in the 30-40k range. Go figure how much he has spent on maintenance and dockage over the last 8-9 years.
People can be nuts...

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by hsi88

Don't know about Europe, but someone making $100K (or even twice that) cannot afford a $300K boat. Not unless this is their only expense and in the U.S. this is almost never the case. We still have a home to pay for and kids to send to college and medical bills that our lousy work insurance plans do not cover. Throw in a $50K loan for a car and that does not leave much for a boat. That's why I own a '77 Cat 30.

It is a problem people create for themselves. There is no logical reason whatsoever for a person or a family making $100K a year to own a $50K car. Doesn't matter if they paid all cash for it or are paying the loan off. May be leasing may make sense of most of that $100K income is 1099 income so at least the lease payments can be written off. Otherwise if people overextend themsleves and then b*tch and moan about this or that I have no pitty for them. Same goes for families sending their kids to expensive private schools by getting deep in debt when there are plenty of good enough state colleges available for a fraction of the cost and with very little debt, if any, at graduation. If your kid does not qualify for a full scholarship on the merits of his high school work and knowledge, in all honesty he/she does not deserve to be the master to his parents' (or his own) financial school loan slavery and should be aiming at the state university or some such where he can pay off the tuition by working partime and Summers. But I guess that would be too much to ask of today's entitled generations.

[a64pilot]

I'd say your a fool to even carry a Mortgage. Why is that debt acceptable and others not?
Autos are another fools choice, yes we have had 50 k cars, never again.
I bought for example a 97 Miata in 2006 for $6300. Ten yrs later the kid had someone pull out in front of her and it was totaled. Their insurance bought it for $5800. So we drove that car for ten years for $500.
Took that money, doubled it and bought an 05 Mazdaspeed Miata, will put it in the hangar with the antique airplane when we leave.

So you can let yourself fall into that trap of driving the latest SUV and buying a new one every three years if you want to, but you will be throwing away an enormous amount of money, but your choice. And that is what it is all about, choice. There is no reason at all to spend more than a couple of hundred bucks a yr on an automobile, none.
I believe it is all about status, average US driver is an idiot, they know nothing at all about automobiles, just know what all their Facebook friends drive.