Cat capsizes off Croatia

[ahun]

It was righted:
https://www.facebook.com/13032055704...KHyfuW2YPDPFl/

[Bent Bugle]

Yep, I'd be interested in seeing an automatic m/sheet release device also...potentially a boat / life saver...main thing is crew are ok...

[catsketcher]

Originally Posted by Hasbeen

1984 I was running a fleet of tourist boats in the Whitsunday Islands, Great Barrier Reef, Australia.


One night we get an emergency call, a couple of boats have turned over just outside the islands. I grabbed our biggest boat, a 30 knot 29 meter international cat, powered by a couple of 16V92 GM diesels, & a few make up crew, & head out there. We were one of 5 boats going to help.



More information came in, it was 3 multi hulls part of a race fleet heading for Cairns, & a couple of the fleet had stopped, picked up the crews, & were standing by. We picked up the crew from one, a 36 ft trimaran which had pitch polled suddenly. In about 20/25 knots it was running fast but comfortably under small spinnaker & full main when it happened.


They directed us to the area where the boat was. We took it in tow upside down, & headed in to sheltered water at about 2 knots. The sails were still set, underwater of course. The area is inside the reef, so there were no ocean swells involved, & the sea was not particularly nasty. There are some shoals around & the flood tide against the trade winds around a shoal can get nasty.


We did not meet the other crews, but gather both boats were cats, & one broached & rolled. We didn't get any story about the other.



There must have been something to cause 3 boats to capsise in the same area in a 600 mile race. The try was righted the next day. The spinnaker was shredded, but other damage was very light.


This was the only time we had to rescue sailers. We were regularly called out to help find outboard powered boats, & occasionally larger launches.

The tri was a Twiggy - Sailmaker and one of the cats was a Shockwave 37 - Pumpkin Eater. Bad old days or Australian multihulls.

[catsketcher]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

for comparision this is from heavy L400 experiences.

2. Full sail, nice upwind pass and 45 kn squall comes suddenly. I thought to be smart turned away from wind. However unable to pass 90 deg apparent ! So we had this 45 kn or so pushing us in coast. Got cleverer and turned back into wind, accelerating and apparent wind going to 50ies in the process. I dont think hull was lifted. No damage.

For those who want to learn where the angle is between heading up or bearing away - get out in a skiff mono or cat like a Taipan or Nacra for a while. You learn really quickly where the point of "death" is - it is around 80-90 degrees true wind. If you are closer to the wind than 80 degrees turn up quickly, if around 100 degrees bear away quickly. If you see a squall coming quickly alter course so you don't have then wind at the problematic angle. You can watch beginner skiff/cat sailors struggle with this concept. If the wind is blowing, beginners can try to sail at 90 true, you can watch them sag and capsize, it takes forever and you can see the capsize occur in slow motion, whereas the better sailors sail a slight zigzag - above 90 true for some time, and heading up to depower in the gusts, and then bearing away beyond 100, and bearing away to depower in the gusts but staying away from the dangerous zone. Keeping a cat near the "death zone" (about 90 true) is really silly when the wind blows up, get the boat out of that zone before the wind hits. Either up or down well before the breeze gets up.

I also don't agree about not easing main being the thing to do in large gusts. You can't do that in any boat but a multi because bearing away requires the main to be eased in almost all monos. Many cats can bear away with no main eased but if I am on deck I always ease the main so that the boat steers properly. If I go faster than with the main trimmed in then the apparent wind is reduced anyway as I am square running so the rig pressure is about the same. Worrying about going fast dead downwind is getting scared of the wrong thing - always when you get a sudden shock - either head up or down and ease main as soon as you can and get yourself a minute to sort stuff out. Get the boat sailing sweetly. You will have many many minutes before you get seas to worry about and no reasonable cat will nosedive in because of wind.

Use the minute or two before the sea state gets nasty wisely. Use this time to get the crew into the cockpit and flake the main halyard. Roll up the genny totally (it is in the lee of the eased main) and then when everyone is ready head up quickly. When the boat gets to about 70 degrees off the wind the main can be pulled down - really fast. Then with weigh still on, bear away again and ease out some heady. Now you are all safe and square running. I don't even need to turn motors on to do this singlehanded on my 38 footer and my halyards are on the mast (I do need to run though).

If you leave the main on hard then the boat will be much harder to steer and will then have full power on when you head up to reef or drop the main. Going slow on a square with a large main trimmed on is bad news. Again try it on a skiff - you will capsize. Skiffs are great teachers because they are performance boats like our cats, but they tell you instantly when you sail them wrong because they capsize. A few weeks crewing on a sportsboat or skiff will help a performance cat owner understand gust dynamics better than almost anything else - our boats are too stable to tell you how to sail them themselves - you need a much less compliant boat to learn from.

You will see some sailors sheet tightly on a square - sailboarders do it when gybing, but they do it for a few seconds at most. Because they are gybing and going fast the apparent is really low, same with 49ers and other skiffs when gybing. If going fast the main can be sheeted in no worries, but you want it eased again when you slow down.

With the main on the rudders can get loaded up and if you get sideways a bit, then the sheeted on main will try to screw you around. You fight the boat and the rudders slow you down, making the apparent greater and the rig force greater too. So get going fast for a while, get set and then drop the sails, use the apparent to make things easier, and keep away from the "death" zone in big winds.

cheers

Phil

[fxykty]

@catsketcher Great explanation but I do have a few quibbles:
- the death zone (awesome term, we used it in Hobies) varies by cat and it’s handling characteristics. On more performant boats it’s further forward (say 70-80* TWA) and for less performant boats it’s further aft at around 100* TWA. In general the death zone corresponds to the angle where true and apparent wind strengths are the same. It is speed dependent (both boat and wind).
- simply easing or dumping the mainsail is a dangerous first response when deeper than the death zone as easing the sheet raises the boom and puts more depth into the sail. More depth equals more power. Dumping the traveller is more appropriate, but is usually more difficult to do quickly. That is why advanced versions of the UpSideUp system have a wind angle sensor; so that the system does the right things based on the boat’s angle to the wind.
- another factor is waves and/or swell. In big waves accelerating as you turn downwind needs to be minimised to avoid uncontrolled surfing and stuffing (leeward bow particularly) into a wave. In flat water the acceleration is OK and as you point out it reduces the apparent wind strength. But with waves it needs to be controlled, hence the advice to not ease and power up the main.

Of course, if higher than the death zone then the correct response is heading up and dumping the main.

By the way, if you lead the tail back around the self tailing winch you can just pull the tail to release.
.

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by fxykty

@catsketcher Great explanation but I do have a few quibbles:
- the death zone (awesome term, we used it in Hobies) varies by cat and it’s handling characteristics. On more performant boats it’s further forward (say 70-80* TWA) and for less performant boats it’s further aft at around 100* TWA. In general the death zone corresponds to the angle where true and apparent wind strengths are the same. It is speed dependent (both boat and wind).
- simply easing or dumping the mainsail is a dangerous first response when deeper than the death zone as easing the sheet raises the boom and puts more depth into the sail. More depth equals more power. Dumping the traveller is more appropriate, but is usually more difficult to do quickly. That is why advanced versions of the UpSideUp system have a wind angle sensor; so that the system does the right things based on the boat’s angle to the wind.
- another factor is waves and/or swell. In big waves accelerating as you turn downwind needs to be minimised to avoid uncontrolled surfing and stuffing (leeward bow particularly) into a wave. In flat water the acceleration is OK and as you point out it reduces the apparent wind strength. But with waves it needs to be controlled, hence the advice to not ease and power up the main.

Of course, if higher than the death zone then the correct response is heading up and dumping the main.

By the way, if you lead the tail back around the self tailing winch you can just pull the tail to release.
Attachment 262106.

Now that’s a cool trick with the sheet tail

[catsketcher]

Originally Posted by fxykty

@catsketcher Great explanation but I do have a few quibbles:
- the death zone (awesome term, we used it in Hobies) varies by cat and it’s handling characteristics. On more performant boats it’s further forward (say 70-80* TWA) and for less performant boats it’s further aft at around 100* TWA. In general the death zone corresponds to the angle where true and apparent wind strengths are the same. It is speed dependent (both boat and wind).
- simply easing or dumping the mainsail is a dangerous first response when deeper than the death zone as easing the sheet raises the boom and puts more depth into the sail. More depth equals more power. Dumping the traveller is more appropriate, but is usually more difficult to do quickly. That is why advanced versions of the UpSideUp system have a wind angle sensor; so that the system does the right things based on the boat’s angle to the wind. .

Thanks for that - I am not sure where my nasty angles are on my cat but I reckon she is not super fast (don't tell her I said that) and so it should be at about 90-100 true.

As for easing main - I sometimes forget that not everyone has a wishbone. I can dump that thing and she swings out like a door, nice and vanged all the time. So yes, my opinons probably need adjusting for those who have typical sheet set ups.

I would like all performance cat sailors to still get out for a few fangs on off the beach cats. You learn an awful lot really quickly that way.

cheers

Phil

[CatNewBee]

Performance cats aren't any good for livaboards and cruising any way, too weight sensitive, uncomfortable. It is like going camping with a Lambo or Ferrari, your trunk barely can accomodate the tent and the matress, and your low chassis makes entering a dirty road a challenge.

They are nice for the highway, but even for weekend shopping quite useless.. Get the right vessel for the job if you want to live on them.

[smj]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Performance cats aren't any good for livaboards and cruising any way, too weight sensitive, uncomfortable. It is like going camping with a Lambo or Ferrari, your trunk barely can accomodate the tent and the matress, and your low chassis makes entering a dirty road a challenge.

They are nice for the highway, but even for weekend shopping quite useless.. Get the right vessel for the job if you want to live on them.

Good to know. Been living onboard a performance cat for the last 4 years and didn’t realize I was doing it all wrong!
We’ve owned quite a few different cats over the past 30 years and I would move back onto land if all I could obtain was a condo cat. Maybe there’s some happiness in between?

[Rumrace]

I worked on a dive boat for a bit out of Cairns in 98. Mike Ball had power cats for dive trips up north. We saw a broken sailing cat but never a flipped one.
Looks like a lovely boat. Hope it’s structure is okay and everyone is safe.

[Rumrace]

Kxy kty is it fare to say a sailor below average skill would need training specially for cats? Sounds familiar but complex

[s/v Jedi]

I don’t understand what the big deal is. If this capsizing bothers you, just hang some wall decorations upside down to improve the experience

[Fore and Aft]

I am hearing you Jedi, and maybe you could have some sort of hatch where the mast step is so you just open that and the mast pops through. Then hopefully you can sail the cat hard and pop her back over again. Even upside down I am sure this cat will sail better than a Lagoon.
I don't think special training is going to help, the owners just need experience built up over time. I have seen a newbie flip a 40 foot Wharram cat in Wellington harbour. He should never had full sail up in those conditions and if he had any sort of experience he would have known that.
Thinking about it maybe this is where a mono is better. I like to push a yacht hard sometimes and come to all sorts of grief when we lose control. But it's nothing like capsizing and a blown kite or broken boom fitting is easily repaired.
Cheers

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Performance cats aren't any good for livaboards and cruising any way, too weight sensitive, uncomfortable. It is like going camping with a Lambo or Ferrari, your trunk barely can accomodate the tent and the matress, and your low chassis makes entering a dirty road a challenge.

They are nice for the highway, but even for weekend shopping quite useless.. Get the right vessel for the job if you want to live on them.

That’s just silly. With a performance cat there are trade offs but none are deal breakers once you move up in size. Our cat has just under 4000kg between lightship and full load - that’s heaps, though for example won’t accommodate a centre console dinghy, an ice maker, or a 1000 litres of fuel.

There was a Delos YT video a while ago with a Catana 43 owner who didn’t allow paper books and they weighed provisions and gear coming on board and removed things if it took them over a certain weight. That wouldn’t be fun for long term cruising.

So smaller performance cats may not be your style, but plenty of people can and do live happily with 1500 or 2000 kg of loading. But if you do want a full size fridge then a performance cat below 60+ feet is not for you.

To carry your SUV analogy further, what about a Porsche Cayenne?

[slowNlow]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Performance cats aren't any good for livaboards and cruising any way, too weight sensitive, uncomfortable. It is like going camping with a Lambo or Ferrari, your trunk barely can accomodate the tent and the matress, and your low chassis makes entering a dirty road a challenge.

They are nice for the highway, but even for weekend shopping quite useless.. Get the right vessel for the job if you want to live on them.

I agree 100 percent. This is going to be miserable.