Buying my first boat- exhilarating and agonizing!

[justinyyc]

Originally Posted by Sofa King Fishy

I’m a first time owner- In May I bought a 2000 Catalina 42 in great shape and am a live aboard. She’s a category A rated ocean vessel. Just for reference, my first year expenses, including a new head sail, dodger, canvas, led lighting upgrades & miscellaneous maintenance like gaskets in the galley/shower, refinishing / painting, etc. are about $16,000 so far. That’s on a nicely maintained vessel. I had saved up for the boat, and around $25k as a slush fund. I suggest saving in expectation- nothing worse than blowing out your sail & being stuck in the marina because you can’t pay for a new one.

that sounds very interesting, how do you find the boat in terms of handling and quality of parts please?

How about in higher winds and big waves please ?

[justinyyc]

Originally Posted by SVKaruna

Hi Jacque,


Thank you for the advice and offer to crew. I've cut my max purchase amount back, to allow for 1. repairs 2. upgrades

Hi there, I've been looking at some of the lake boats vs those on the ocean and the lake boats do not seem on average to be as kitted out with as much navigation aids, steering help etc... Even things like two verses one anchor for example.

[DDouglasone]

KISS! I bought a Catalina 25 swing keel, drive it to everywhere, sail the heck out of it, home sitting in the driveway ready and waiting. I used to have a much bigger Seafarer 31-1 Blue Water boat but... Fists full of cash came and went pretty fast.
I loved down sizing. It makes it so much easier to bear.
It's back to the reason I got a sailboat, adventure.!

[Lihuedooley77]

Lisa

You have received some very expert information and ideas on how to approach your dream of sailing the world, exotic islands, wonderful people, and the adventure and freedom of cruising.

Maybe before plunking down a lot of cash for an older vessel that may not be in good repair, and has loads of deferred maintenace and problems, and costing you several more thousands of dollars, and mucho time and effort....

Might suggest that you join a sailing club. Dedicate yourself to the clubs lessons and
have the opportunity to quickly get out on the water sailing their many different types of vessels and actually learn what you need, like and dislike , This can also be sharing the cost of boat rental fees with your new friends in the sailing club.

You will become very familar with the many different sailing conditions, weather, good, and bad, and sometimes challenging . Acquire experience in all phases of sailing, navigation, docking, anchoring, mooring pick up, reefing, rigging, fog procedures, and know all of the different vessels systems and how to fix some of those problems that can occur.

The above is just a small amount of the knowledge and seaman ship that you may need to make that dream a reality.

The other thing, in your quest for cruising, you , thru your sailing club, might be able to do some bare boating in the BVI or other caribbean crusing grounds for 10 day to a a couple of weeks, and become a little familiar with international sailing areas, and have a grand time without a huge outlay of cash.

Share the cost with others, and please actually sail , and not just turn on the iron jenny, and auto pilot coupled to the GPS. That also requires a very good Coastal Piloting and Navigation course.

[SVKaruna]

There are a lot more posts I haven't seen!


Thank you for the advice Lihuedooley77. I may charter in BVI next winter to get a taste of ocean sailing.


Marathon1150- Thank you for sharing your comments based on your experience. There is such a variety of opinions from those that have done long passages! Knowing myself, I would really enjoy a long passage. I can't imagine being bored. Definitely would do the first one on someone else's boat.


Thanks merrydolphin! I did find the right seller. He is honest and has integrity. He had 3 other offers right after I submitted my offer!





LauraleeG- Yes I did buy the Niagara.


Thanks merrydolphin! I did find the right seller. He is honest and has integrity. He had 3 other offers right after I submitted my offer!


Contrary to some of the appreciated and valued advice given here, I've bought a Niagara 35 Encore. She's been immaculately cared for, with detailed repair and service records. She has 200w solar, 2 anchors (1 rocna), new sails, and about 1,500 engine hours. I loved her the minute I stepped foot on her. I'm also a bit overwhelmed with all there is to learn. Add to that, the many things that can and will go wrong.


I will be taking the ASA liveaboard barefoot skipper course early spring. Probably Coastal Navigation course as well. I'm not interested in having electronic instruments do everything. More interested in balanced, efficient sail trim, chart plotting, learning about rigging tuning, engine maintenance, safety, reading weather patterns, storm tactics... so much more.


I'm also joining a yacht club at the marina I hope to keep the boat at.


So grateful for everyone's input. I've enjoyed reading about what you've learned from your own experiences.

[SVKaruna]

Originally Posted by Flagfish

Why don't you just buy my 1972 Albin Vega 27' on a road-legal trailer for under $15k? The previous owner sailed for a year up and down the eastern seaboard, and I took her to Hawaii and back in 2014. Look at blog flagfish1.blogspot.com.

Excellent bluewater boat in structurally great condition. Many Vegas have circumnavigated. You could sail through the Panama Canal home, or trailer her cross-country if you're not ready for that commitment.

I've done my big adventure and find it painful to think of this excellent bluewater boat being used only for marina daysailing.

Enjoyed reading about the highs and lows of your Hawaii passage.



This might be of interest to you. He sailed around the Americas solo with the Albin Vega 27! https://www.sail-world.com/Canada/Ma...ost-home/96122

[Vagamundo.]

Hi guys, I have a question, have been looking for a second-hand sailboat for a long time and there are many options in several countries but my question is, whatkind of papers or documents use to ask if I buy the sailboat in Europe or the USA?

[flyingnut40]

You would do well to start a new thread with your question.....
Worldwide forum..... locations are also useful..... ;-)

Moderators ????

[Sofa King Fishy]

She’s a forgiving sailer- Catalina’s large boats are designed to be good all round boats- they’re basic & sturdy, with lead keels & a keel stepped mast. - I’ve yet to sail in anything over 30k, but she’ll handle 15-20 with full canvas. The parts used are typical of a production boat- Lewmar Ocean Hatches, Lewmar Winches, Shafer furler. All hardware on Catalinas is Garhauer- they’re based in California, USA & make very sturdy & affordable hard wear. What sold me on the vessel when I shopped around is the accessibility to all systems, simplicity of design, wide weather decks - that’s huge for moving about the deck safely, and it’s comfortable to single hand.

[Renegde_Sailor]

Originally Posted by SVKaruna

I will give a brief overview of my situation. I live in Kingston, ON. I've been researching Water boats">blue water boats for about 4 years. My dream is to sail in the ocean, to distant shores. At the moment, I'm committed to family which means sailing on Lake Ontario. There is more variety, and some well equipped cruising boats, on the Eastern seaboard of the U.S. Ideally, I will buy a boat on Lake Ontario. Pacific Seacraft 34 and Niagara Mark 35 are top contenders currently for sale in the area. I vacillate between keep it simple and within budget (Niagara '79)and get the boat you really want and not as old (PSC '90 $20,000.00 over budget). Of course both would involve investing in offshore gear. Third option is to be patient and wait for other types of blue water boats to enter the market.
Thanks in advance to any words of wisdom you may impart!


Lisa

Lisa,



I don't know what your level of experience is, but if this is going to bee your first boat, I would start of first with something small and cheap, that you can use to sail, and make your mistakes in a smaller lighter boat that costs less to fix, and does less damage if you run into something.

Boat size is exponential, this means as the length goes up, so does the volume and weight and it is not a direct correlation. My 42' sailboat weighs almost twice as much as most 30' boats!

Also on a smaller boat, the pressures on lines are just going to be less, and it will teach you what you do and do not like.

The 30-34' range like you are looking at there is not a bad place to be.

However I think you will find there is a big difference between the 'racing' style boats that tend to come in a smaller size and the full keel boats that are better for off shore work.

And yes some folks do take full keel boats off shore, and they are perfectly fine when the weather is nice. It is when the weather stops being so nice that they get interesting.

On my 42' she is a full keel boat, has 8,000 lbs of ballast and a 48' mast, I have had her out in 46 knots of wind in 10' seas on a 6 second period, It was a rough ride but I never felt like I was in danger because she handled it.

A racing boat with a fin keel and cored hull in the same conditions I would think would have been a very scary experience and would have been in danger of capsizing.

That being said it also depends on your timeline. If you are wanting to be sailing the world within a couple of years, it may be best to buy your forever boat now because over the next few years you will wind up doing a great deal of work to it to make it your own.

That is the part people miss is that once you get a boat and start using that boat, you discover everything you need to personalize about it to make it suit your needs.

You're going to want certain things like a chart plotter, a self steering system, personally I want to have both a wind vane and auto pilot because each has their advantages depending on what you are doing.

Other things you need to consider are the tankage size, I see the PSC has a 38 gallon diesel tank.

If you figure the engine burns .5 gallons per hour, that means you can run it for 76 hours, if you motor at 5 knots, that gives a motoring range of 380 nautical miles.

Any time running the engine to charge batteries is going to tear down that number substantially.

Many cruisers circumvent this by carrying fuel tanks on deck. The inherent problem with that is anything stowed on deck is above the center of gravity which means it will work against the righting action of the boat driven by the ballast.

Diesel is about 7.48 pounds per gallon, so if you run 4 5 gallon cans stowed on deck, that is 149.6 lbs throw another 20 gallons of water on deck at 8.6 lbs/gal that is 172 lbs, that is 321.6 lbs on deck, which makes up about 7% of the Pacific Seacraft's 4,800 lb ballast weight.

Throw a few more things up on deck, and all of the sudden you have lost 10% of the effectiveness of your ballast.

If you want to take a boat blue water, it is my recommendation to add tanks below decks where they work for you instead of against. Again though, this costs money.

Another consideration is what is the condition of the engine, and are parts still available for that engine? There are many engines sitting in sailboats now that could run but cannot because parts are no longer available for them, and swapping engines is expensive business.

Finally, the condition of the rig and sails are a big driving factor, sails cost thousands of dollars, and replacing rigging costs thousands of dollars.

Finally there is the design of the rudder, the PSC has a skeg hung rudder which is good, (you want skeg or keel hung) the Niagara has a spade rudder, which has a single point of attachment, and because of this it is much easier to lose your rudder, and no rudder means no steering.

Not exactly something you want to happen 1300 miles from Hawaii!


Also the refrigeration system is something you need to check out, this is one of the single most important systems on the boat because if you lose you fridge, you lose your food, and in a small boat you have less room and capacity to carry emergency rations.

Also what kind of condition is the stove in? Losing your ability to cook is also a serious issue.

And keep in mind these systems are expensive, a new stove is 1500-2000.00 a refrigeration system is going to run north of 3000.



Every boat is going to be a compromise, it all depends on what you require, and more importantly what level of comfort you require.

Thus if you plan on buying a 30,000.00 boat, I recommend planning on having at least have another 30,000 to put into it, or at least plan on putting that money in before you go sailing full time.

[Lihuedooley77]

Karuna

Great news....

This early evening, we will be hoisting a glass of rum to you....

Your new Boat

And Sailing the British Virgin Islands omce you get a bit of blue water under your keel is Outstanding .

and I will guarantee, that there well be many following trips sailing those waters.

Your plans for sailing lessons and seaman ship and coastal piloting and Navigation, just add to the whole dream that you have.

Be a bit prepared for challenges, and stay positive like you are...everything is leading to living your dream.

Aye, and remember DARK RUM is the quality rum for us ancient mariners .



Denny and Erica

[Lihuedooley77]

Karuna,


A BVI story...

For many years I worked as a sailing and motor vessel instructor and charter capt. and
I really wanted to sail the caribbean. Situations rose up where different sailing club members, wanted me to go to the BVI with them, and act as skipper for their first trip.

Time after time that dream was dashed. The last time, everything was perfect, people I could count on, I was going to make it to the BVI.....but, as our date approached they had to cancel....

My heart was hurting a bit , failed again. I did not mention it to anyone. And I stayed positive for the lesson. But after the students had all left the docks I headed into the Ware House Dock Side bar for a Rum.

Into the bar comes the owner of the Sailing Club, a salty capt. Bligh, but hell on wheels for all us practicing seaman ship , and proper everything.

He nodded for me to follow him over to a quiet table.

" Denny, I understand that your BVI sailing cruise was cancelled. "

Yep, Ian, it was.

I just smiled and took a zip of my rum.

" Let me tell you something, YOU ARE GOING TO BE SAILING THOSE ISLANDS, IT WILL HAPPEN , AND NOT JUST ONE TIME and you will be sailing to world wide adventures. ? "

Well that perked me up, and eventually the Sailing Club sponsored a BVI trip, and i got a great deal on a Benneteau 32. We had a fleet of about 12 boats for a loose flotilla. Wow ! What a fabulous cruising ground. I loved the BVI.

Once back up in Newport, I was working our booth at the Newport Sail Boat Show, and a nice gentleman came up to our Sailing Club booth and we started talking story.

I am all excited about the BVI and he relates that he and his family have just returned from their 5th BVI Sailing Vacation, and at the time, I thought. FIFTH BVI SAILING VACATION, who would sail there five different times ?.

35 years later, this year, May 2019, Erica and I returned from our 17th BVI bare boat two week sailing vacation. So when I read your post, that is why I added in, that you also will be sailing those waters again, and again, plus other caribbean islands, and maybe the south pacific, and Australia as well.

Your dream is just beginning.

Both Erica and I are very happy for you and your family.

Denny and Erica

[SVKaruna]

Originally Posted by Renegde_Sailor

Lisa,



I don't know what your level of experience is, but if this is going to bee your first boat, I would start of first with something small and cheap, that you can use to sail, and make your mistakes in a smaller lighter boat that costs less to fix, and does less damage if you run into something.

Boat size is exponential, this means as the length goes up, so does the volume and weight and it is not a direct correlation. My 42' sailboat weighs almost twice as much as most 30' boats!

Also on a smaller boat, the pressures on lines are just going to be less, and it will teach you what you do and do not like.

The 30-34' range like you are looking at there is not a bad place to be.

However I think you will find there is a big difference between the 'racing' style boats that tend to come in a smaller size and the full keel boats that are better for off shore work.

And yes some folks do take full keel boats off shore, and they are perfectly fine when the weather is nice. It is when the weather stops being so nice that they get interesting.

On my 42' she is a full keel boat, has 8,000 lbs of ballast and a 48' mast, I have had her out in 46 knots of wind in 10' seas on a 6 second period, It was a rough ride but I never felt like I was in danger because she handled it.

A racing boat with a fin keel and cored hull in the same conditions I would think would have been a very scary experience and would have been in danger of capsizing.

That being said it also depends on your timeline. If you are wanting to be sailing the world within a couple of years, it may be best to buy your forever boat now because over the next few years you will wind up doing a great deal of work to it to make it your own.

That is the part people miss is that once you get a boat and start using that boat, you discover everything you need to personalize about it to make it suit your needs.

You're going to want certain things like a chart plotter, a self steering system, personally I want to have both a wind vane and auto pilot because each has their advantages depending on what you are doing.

Other things you need to consider are the tankage size, I see the PSC has a 38 gallon diesel tank.

If you figure the engine burns .5 gallons per hour, that means you can run it for 76 hours, if you motor at 5 knots, that gives a motoring range of 380 nautical miles.

Any time running the engine to charge batteries is going to tear down that number substantially.

Many cruisers circumvent this by carrying fuel tanks on deck. The inherent problem with that is anything stowed on deck is above the center of gravity which means it will work against the righting action of the boat driven by the ballast.

Diesel is about 7.48 pounds per gallon, so if you run 4 5 gallon cans stowed on deck, that is 149.6 lbs throw another 20 gallons of water on deck at 8.6 lbs/gal that is 172 lbs, that is 321.6 lbs on deck, which makes up about 7% of the Pacific Seacraft's 4,800 lb ballast weight.

Throw a few more things up on deck, and all of the sudden you have lost 10% of the effectiveness of your ballast.

If you want to take a boat blue water, it is my recommendation to add tanks below decks where they work for you instead of against. Again though, this costs money.

Another consideration is what is the condition of the engine, and are parts still available for that engine? There are many engines sitting in sailboats now that could run but cannot because parts are no longer available for them, and swapping engines is expensive business.

Finally, the condition of the rig and sails are a big driving factor, sails cost thousands of dollars, and replacing rigging costs thousands of dollars.

Finally there is the design of the rudder, the PSC has a skeg hung rudder which is good, (you want skeg or keel hung) the Niagara has a spade rudder, which has a single point of attachment, and because of this it is much easier to lose your rudder, and no rudder means no steering.

Not exactly something you want to happen 1300 miles from Hawaii!


Also the refrigeration system is something you need to check out, this is one of the single most important systems on the boat because if you lose you fridge, you lose your food, and in a small boat you have less room and capacity to carry emergency rations.

Also what kind of condition is the stove in? Losing your ability to cook is also a serious issue.

And keep in mind these systems are expensive, a new stove is 1500-2000.00 a refrigeration system is going to run north of 3000.



Every boat is going to be a compromise, it all depends on what you require, and more importantly what level of comfort you require.

Thus if you plan on buying a 30,000.00 boat, I recommend planning on having at least have another 30,000 to put into it, or at least plan on putting that money in before you go sailing full time.

Renedge Sailor- Thanks so much for taking the time to share your advice and recommendations. You covered a lot of worthwhile subjects, which I will take into consideration.

Niagara's spade rudder gave me pause when I was first considering purchasing her. There's a vlogger (Have wind will travel) that did a post on reinforcing their Niagara rudder. I don't know if I will do that or not. At this point in time, I plan on sailing on Lake Ontario for a year or more. After I'm familiar with Karuna (Niagara) and how she handles, I will either prepare her for ocean by adding wind vane, new rigging, storm sail, inner forestay, ais, etc., or look for a more ocean worthy sailing vessel.



I plan on going over every major component as soon as she's launched. We'll see what the survey turns up in the spring.


I also plan on living on her for the entire summer. I will quickly learn if my basic needs will be met, as well as shortcomings to overcome and repairs.

[SVKaruna]

Originally Posted by Lihuedooley77

Karuna,


A BVI story...

For many years I worked as a sailing and motor vessel instructor and charter capt. and
I really wanted to sail the caribbean. Situations rose up where different sailing club members, wanted me to go to the BVI with them, and act as skipper for their first trip.

Time after time that dream was dashed. The last time, everything was perfect, people I could count on, I was going to make it to the BVI.....but, as our date approached they had to cancel....

My heart was hurting a bit , failed again. I did not mention it to anyone. And I stayed positive for the lesson. But after the students had all left the docks I headed into the Ware House Dock Side bar for a Rum.

Into the bar comes the owner of the Sailing Club, a salty capt. Bligh, but hell on wheels for all us practicing seaman ship , and proper everything.

He nodded for me to follow him over to a quiet table.

" Denny, I understand that your BVI sailing cruise was cancelled. "

Yep, Ian, it was.

I just smiled and took a zip of my rum.

" Let me tell you something, YOU ARE GOING TO BE SAILING THOSE ISLANDS, IT WILL HAPPEN , AND NOT JUST ONE TIME and you will be sailing to world wide adventures. ? "

Well that perked me up, and eventually the Sailing Club sponsored a BVI trip, and i got a great deal on a Benneteau 32. We had a fleet of about 12 boats for a loose flotilla. Wow ! What a fabulous cruising ground. I loved the BVI.

Once back up in Newport, I was working our booth at the Newport Sail Boat Show, and a nice gentleman came up to our Sailing Club booth and we started talking story.

I am all excited about the BVI and he relates that he and his family have just returned from their 5th BVI Sailing Vacation, and at the time, I thought. FIFTH BVI SAILING VACATION, who would sail there five different times ?.

35 years later, this year, May 2019, Erica and I returned from our 17th BVI bare boat two week sailing vacation. So when I read your post, that is why I added in, that you also will be sailing those waters again, and again, plus other caribbean islands, and maybe the south pacific, and Australia as well.

Your dream is just beginning.

Both Erica and I are very happy for you and your family.

Denny and Erica

Denny and Erica, Thank you for your encouragement, congrats, and especially your positive BVI story! Great story. 35 years! You obviously love it there. I'm thinking of chartering in the Caribbean next winter. I will contact you when I do.


Thank you for the rum tip.

[dbraymer]

Lets at least get the diesel usage straight, and the hot water.

The easiest way to get hot water showers inexpensively, and routinely is to plumb a small heat exchanger into the diesel. (There are 110 hot water heaters that have this feature as well).

When you charge your batteries every day (mornings work out best, as the wind is often iffy in the morning), you will have a shot at hot water for an hour or so.

If you have an auto prop, your propeller will deploy to a pitch that will assist your sailing.

This all said, you should not plan on any tremendously optimistic diesel mileage. If you are stuck outside a harbor with the wind coming directly from the harbor, you will not get good mileage. Salinas Cruz Mexico and Hemingway Marina in Cuba are good examples.

A good rule of thumb is plan twice the typical diesel usage for what ever leg of whatever voyage you are planning.

I could generally get 1.25 gallons per hour at 6 knots in my CT47. So when I planned a 500 mile leg, with 100 gallons of diesel on board, I could theoretically go 80 hours at 6 knots which is almost the entire leg.

However prudent planning would be to keep in mind that bad conditions could reduce the mileage to maybe 2.5 gallons per hour, effectively. (this takes into account reverse currents and such as well as wrong way winds)

Practically speaking, the best way to look at this is to start off in nice weather, and try to get a couple of 150 mile sailing days in before everything starts to go to heck. If you figure you can sail 300 of the 500 miles, and then fight your way through the unexpected bad weather that always shows up, that would be 200 miles at 6 knots, say 35 hours of diesel, and that at 2.5 gallons per hour is 87.5 gallons.

In this dead reckoning, I am actually planning at a greater usage per hour because you cant easily go 6 knots unless you crank the diesel RPMs up...

I hope this helps you plan a little safer.

Also, you should always pack a couple of 6 gallon diesel jugs with trusted diesel inside. You may get unlucky and buy some diesel laden with water. This will load the filters and cause shut down and bleeding sessions.

When you finally get almost to where you are going, it might be a good plan to interrupt the diesel line and take the feed from a trusted source for the last hour or so, which will of course be at night in a serious rain storm...

Upon reading this through, the text appears to be somewhat erh, negative in nature. Please be reminded, that on a good night, with 1 million stars visible, you get to talk directly to a higher power.