big performance cruising cat capsizes

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Polux

The escape hatch exist today on practical all multi hulls since, for safety reasons it is considered necessary by the RCD and no cat will be certified without.

Yeah no - best provide a reference if you are going to make legislative claims, it helps your credibility.

I don't understand how it lets encapsulated air out if it is over the waterline and if you can close it from the outside

. Try this, get an empty tin can - invert it put in a sink full of water and see how you can push, resistance - natural float point etc. Now put a hole in the top (was the bottom) and do the same thing. You understand now?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Nope, the two I see locally seem to have all the cruising toys and stuff you’d expect. That’s on a pretty big platform though. I guess once you get over 50 feet you can have both cruising and performance, but the ability of a mom and pop crew to sail safely is the differentiator.

I don't know the interior of the Bieker but much smaller and fast light performance catamarans have simple but nice cruising interiors.

This one is the one of a TS 42 a true rocket that has obtained some great results on the race course but I would say a boat to be sailed only by a very experienced crew.

And if short crewed sailed with a lot of caution and very conservatively by experienced sailors that have the patient and the good sense to do so.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Factor

Yeah no - best provide a reference if you are going to make legislative claims, it helps your credibility.
. Try this, get an empty tin can - invert it put in a sink full of water and see how you can push, resistance - natural float point etc. Now put a hole in the top (was the bottom) and do the same thing. You understand now?

Thanks! Better than I could have explained it. I was just going to let it go.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Factor

Yeah no - best provide a reference if you are going to make legislative claims, it helps your credibility.
. Try this, get an empty tin can - invert it put in a sink full of water and see how you can push, resistance - natural float point etc. Now put a hole in the top (was the bottom) and do the same thing. You understand now?

If you don't know what I am talking about it means you know very little about what is demanded to a modern multihull to be RCD certified but yes, they all have to have escape hatches.

It seems you don't understands how it works. A escape hatch is out of the water when a cat is capsized and it can be opened from the inside and closed from the outside. You get out, close it again and it is like it would have remained closed the hole time, except that you got out of the boat without having to dive.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Polux

If you don't know what I am talking about it means you know very little about what is demanded to a modern multihull to be RCD certified but yes, they all have to have escape hatches.



It seems you don't understands how it works. A escape hatch is out of the water when a cat is capsized and it can be opened from the inside and closed from the outside. You get out, close it again and it is like it would have remained closed the hole time, except that you got out of the boat without having to dive.

I think what Factor is saying is the water in the capsized hull is displacing the air lost when the hatch is open. Means the trapped air is part of the floatation. I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time and not the last.


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[Mariano]

I don't know why they demand escape hatches on a multi and don't demand scuba tanks in a mono as a way of getting out of it once it hits the bottom. (Just a little joke, I'm a mono guy dreaming with my future cat)

[Cadence]

I'd rather take my chanced swimming out and sitting on the bridge deck or a hull upside down than a sunken boat.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Mariano

I don't know why they demand escape hatches on a multi and don't demand scuba tanks in a mono as a way of getting out of it once it hits the bottom. (Just a little joke, I'm a mono guy dreaming with my future cat)

RE scuba tanks, how deep is the bottom. Anywhere offshore and you’ll be squished flat well before you run out of air.

For a cat, if you’re in a hull, say sleeping in a berth or on the head, when the boat capsizes you’re trapped in that hull. Going underwater and down to swim through the salon, out the door, and out from under the bimini is way more than most people could handle. Hence, escape hatches. As in the definition of the name.

Hatches also allow those outside the boat to get back into the boat to get the grab bag, EPIRB, food etc. And to get into the hulls for shelter.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Nope, the two I see locally seem to have all the cruising toys and stuff you’d expect. That’s on a pretty big platform though. I guess once you get over 50 feet you can have both cruising and performance, but the ability of a mom and pop crew to sail safely is the differentiator.

As has been said often enough though, these boats can be sailed safely, at lower speeds. For a shorthanded crew or a couple, you might hardly ever use full main or the big downwind sails. But you'd still be able to maintain healthy averages.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Factor

Yeah no - best provide a reference if you are going to make legislative claims, it helps your credibility.
. Try this, get an empty tin can - invert it put in a sink full of water and see how you can push, resistance - natural float point etc. Now put a hole in the top (was the bottom) and do the same thing. You understand now?

While I get the point, I think the reality is that most boats will already have "holes" letting the air out. Toilet outlets, sink drains and the like.

The idea is to have enough buoyancy in the structure, rather than relying on air trapped in the hulls.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by smj

I think what Factor is saying is the water in the capsized hull is displacing the air lost when the hatch is open. Means the trapped air is part of the floatation. I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time and not the last.


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I don't know what he is saying what I know is that these hatches have to exist on all multihulls with over 12 meters to be sold in Europe and are demanded by the RCD. Builders outside Europe that sell or intend to sell the boats there (taht are almost all) equipped their multihulls with them.

There have been on the past years several capsizes with cat equipped with such hatches. The crew has been able to use them and for getting out of the overturned cats AND NONE OF THOSE CATS SUNK after that.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Factor

Yeah no - best provide a reference if you are going to make legislative claims, it helps your credibility.
...

"RCD Revision 1 2014

ER 3.8 All habitable multihull craft over 12 metres long shall be provided with viable means of escape in the event of inversion. All habitable craft shall be provided with viable means of escape in the event of fire.

Relevant parts of standards: BS EN ISO 9094-1(up to and including 15m) or BS EN ISO 9094-2 (over 15m) – Small Craft - Fire protection.
BS EN ISO 12216:2002 – Small Craft - Windows, portlights, hatches, deadlights and doors - Strength and tightness requirements.

Each habitable area of a multihull sailing craft shall have access to an escape hatch capable of being used in the capsized position. See Section 11 on Fire Protection for information on fire escape hatches and doors."

[contrail]

Originally Posted by Polux

"RCD Revision 1 2014

ER 3.8 All habitable multihull craft over 12 metres long shall be provided with viable means of escape in the event of inversion. All habitable craft shall be provided with viable means of escape in the event of fire.

Relevant parts of standards: BS EN ISO 9094-1(up to and including 15m) or BS EN ISO 9094-2 (over 15m) – Small Craft - Fire protection.
BS EN ISO 12216:2002 – Small Craft - Windows, portlights, hatches, deadlights and doors - Strength and tightness requirements.

Each habitable area of a multihull sailing craft shall have access to an escape hatch capable of being used in the capsized position. See Section 11 on Fire Protection for information on fire escape hatches and doors."

This is very true, but bureaucracies frequently come up with illogical rules. Think only of the EU standards for thruhulls. The escape hatches are very similar. Very seldom, if ever, actually used, and every single one that I know of has been prone to leaking, given the right conditions, i.e. slamming and very rough weather. In addition to that, a number of them have been torn off in rough weather, and then you have a gaping hole in the bottom of the bridge-deck or side of the hull. Nothing is perfect, and my choice would be to glass over the hatch to avoid its problems, but the regs requiring one in Europe (and, by extension, whilst chartering in the Caribbean) have kept me from doing that.

[contrail]

Originally Posted by Polux

I don't know what he is saying what I know is that these hatches have to exist on all multihulls with over 12 meters to be sold in Europe and are demanded by the RCD. Builders outside Europe that sell or intend to sell the boats there (taht are almost all) equipped their multihulls with them.

There have been on the past years several capsizes with cat equipped with such hatches. The crew has been able to use them and for getting out of the overturned cats AND NONE OF THOSE CATS SUNK after that.

Hmmmm. A few posts ago, you said that no cruising cats had sunk. And that my assertion that a few had was incorrect, because I refused to name them. Seems like you might have found some of them. Good research! I will leave it at that.

[stevensuf]

Originally Posted by Polux

Sorry, but I can find any condo cat with 50ft or over that had capsized while I can find several 50 and over 50ft performance cats that have capsized, all on the last 10 years or so.

Please, if you know of any condo cat with 50ft or over that had capsized just post some references. I am following this subject for a considerable time and I am well informed about it.

This knowledge has nothing to do with sailing cats or not and if you are right (I have doubts) you would be contributing to the global knowledge regarding capsize risk on performance cats versus capsizing risk on condo cats.

Try looking in st martin or the BVIs, plenty capsized there.