big performance cruising cat capsizes

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by Polux

"RCD Revision 1 2014

ER 3.8 All habitable multihull craft over 12 metres long shall be provided with viable means of escape in the event of inversion...

Each habitable area of a multihull sailing craft shall have access to an escape hatch capable of being used in the capsized position. See Section 11 on Fire Protection for information on fire escape hatches and doors."

I wonder if this may have changed or perhaps there is a way to obtain a waiver. I noted at the Miami show that the FP Saba no longer has the escape hatches in the hulls.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by fxykty

RE scuba tanks, how deep is the bottom. Anywhere offshore and you’ll be squished flat well before you run out of air.

For a cat, if you’re in a hull, say sleeping in a berth or on the head, when the boat capsizes you’re trapped in that hull. Going underwater and down to swim through the salon, out the door, and out from under the bimini is way more than most people could handle. Hence, escape hatches. As in the definition of the name.

Hatches also allow those outside the boat to get back into the boat to get the grab bag, EPIRB, food etc. And to get into the hulls for shelter.

If someone's EPIRB needs to be retrieved from below decks they are already in deep DuDu 0r sh$t..

[Polux]

Originally Posted by CalmSeasQuest

I wonder if this may have changed or perhaps there is a way to obtain a waiver. I noted at the Miami show that the FP Saba no longer has the escape hatches in the hulls.

The most recent RCD says:

"7.13 Escape after inversion
7.13.1 For all habitable boats considered to be vulnerable to inversion according to 7.11.2 or 7.11.3, a “means of escape” to the exterior when the boat is inverted shall be accessible from each habitable part of the boat.

A “means of escape” may comprise any of the following:
a) a dedicated escape hatch, or
b) a fixed panel held in place by a sealing strip and removable bead, or
c) a “break-out panel” comprising either a predefined area of hull skin which can be broken through in an emergency using special tools, or a fixed panel that can be broken with a sharp implement, or
d) for design category C and D, a normal access opening that is accessible by a short swim underwater
(see 7.13.3 below).
NOTE A habitable boat is defined in 3.1.9. A habitable part of a boat is defined in 3.1.10.
7.13.2 Habitable multihull boats of design categories A and B, when the boat is floating in the inverted position in
calm water at mLDC, the highest edge of the means of escape opening shall be at least 0,2 m above the sea surface."

It may not be a escape hatch but any of the other options listed.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Cadence

If someone's EPIRB needs to be retrieved from below decks they are already in deep DuDu 0r sh$t..

This is my first cruising cat. The PO had bought two EPIRBs, one of which was still in date that I’ve registered. But neither was mounted - both were in a grab bag. I don’t know where it’s best to mount an EPIRB on a larger cat - any suggestions?

The monohull option is typically just inside the companionway so the on watch crew in the cockpit can reach it easily. That location also puts it next to the most obvious cabin exit so other crew coming out can grab it.

But in a cat, if you’ve capsized, a location next to the salon door is over a metre underwater and a long way from the above water portions of the boat. But the safest way to exit an upside down cat, even if you’re in the salon, is going to be via an escape hatch, as that takes you up towards the air in the hulls. So it seems that an EPIRB should be next to one of the escape hatches, together with the grab bags. But in the case of fire or crashing onto a reef, a location next to the salon door makes more sense.

Suggestions?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by contrail

Hmmmm. A few posts ago, you said that no cruising cats had sunk. And that my assertion that a few had was incorrect, because I refused to name them. Seems like you might have found some of them. Good research! I will leave it at that.

I don't understand your problem to name the things by their name and to say what you are talking about. For what you say I don't know if those cats you say that sunk had been or not RCD cerified.

I know of one that sunk but that one had burned and that destroyed the water tight compartments and as you say nothing is perfect and sometimes what should not have happen happens but what the RCD says about Cats and Buoyancy when inverted is that they should float and that air trapped should not be considered for the buoyancy ability:

"7.12 Buoyancy when inverted
7.12.1 For habitable sailing multihulls which are considered to be vulnerable to inversion according to 7.11.2
or 7.11.3, it shall be shown by calculation using Annex D that, when inverted and/or fully flooded, the volume of buoyancy, expressed in cubic metres (m3), in the hull, fittings and equipment is greater than the number represented by (mLDC/850), thus ensuring that it is sufficient to support the mass of the loaded boat by a margin. Habitable parts of the boat may not be included. Dedicated flotation elements (see 3.6.6) and watertight
compartments not containing habitable parts of the boat may be included. Apart from these, allowance for trapped bubbles of air shall not be included."

[contrail]

Originally Posted by Polux

I don't understand your problem to name the things by their name and to say what you are talking about. For what you say I don't know if those cats you say that sunk had been or not RCD cerified.

I know of one that sunk but that one had burned and that destroyed the water tight compartments and as you say nothing is perfect and sometimes what should not have happen happens but what the RCD says about Cats and Buoyancy when inverted is that they should float and that air trapped should not be considered for the buoyancy ability:

"7.12 Buoyancy when inverted
7.12.1 For habitable sailing multihulls which are considered to be vulnerable to inversion according to 7.11.2
or 7.11.3, it shall be shown by calculation using Annex D that, when inverted and/or fully flooded, the volume of buoyancy, expressed in cubic metres (m3), in the hull, fittings and equipment is greater than the number represented by (mLDC/850), thus ensuring that it is sufficient to support the mass of the loaded boat by a margin. Habitable parts of the boat may not be included. Dedicated flotation elements (see 3.6.6) and watertight
compartments not containing habitable parts of the boat may be included. Apart from these, allowance for trapped bubbles of air shall not be included."

Well, for starters, most have watertight compartments containing air to arrive at this level of flotation. And, those can be breached. Have had it happen, as a matter of fact. The reality is that most can sink, just as most monohulls can capsize. Neither does it very often, thankfully.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by contrail

Well, for starters, most have watertight compartments containing air to arrive at this level of flotation. And, those can be breached. Have had it happen, as a matter of fact. The reality is that most can sink, just as most monohulls can capsize. Neither does it very often, thankfully.

All boats can capsize, monohull sailboats if Class A will only capsize if heeled well over 90º and contrary to multihulls that cannot happen with wind alone.

It is needed a sea condition with breaking waves and the waves that invert it will bring it upright on a relatively short period of time.

Of course, some very few monohulls have lost the keel and in that case they can capsize and remain inverted, like multihulls do. I would say that it is as rare as RCD class A multihulls that sink after being inverted: very rare and in both cases we are not talking only about a capsize but about a damaged boat.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

lets face it, americans really do not know about cats. Too many capsizes and failed projects.
My advice : stick with monohulls.

Okay, that was just plain funny.
Say it out loud with one of those cute accents, and try not to laugh.

[fatherchronica]

40 or 45 years ago there was an article in either Cruising World or Sail magazine about the owner of a Morgan Out Island 41 who decided to sail from Florida to Columbia with his friends. They noticed there was an upcoming race from Florida to Cartegena and decided that the weather information and camaraderie were worth the entry fee. A hurricane interrupted the race. And lo and behold due to the big fat cruisers ability to carry sail in all weather conditions, and I imagine the rashness of youth they arrived days earlier than the few racers that actually showed up. Whether a Morgan 41 of that vintage could right itself with the shallow draft and almost cat like beam after a capsize is another story in itself. The only time I have ever been terrified on a boat was at the helm of a tri in a race around Anacapa Island from Ventura Harbor, also about 40 years ago, in Southern California's Santa Ana winds. I was more worried about the leeward ama coming to pieces as it was a foot or so under water leaving a rooster tail behind it.