Average Discount to Price

[kmacdonald]

Don't be shy about offering next to nothing for old boats. A lot of them will never sell and end up in the landfill.

[valhalla360]

Unless it's a one off boat that you absolutely must have...who cares if the seller gets offended. That's their problem.


Of course there is a difference between making a low offer and being rude. Put some sugar on it: Gosh I really like the boat but we really can't go above $X, so I don't want to offend you.


If they guy is like some who gets offended easily, you didn't technically make an offer. If they guy is ready to deal, he can come back with something like: Thanks for your kind words. I could come down but below $Y is too much.


....and so on till you reach agreement or the sale doesn't happen.

[Island Time O25]

A few seasons ago I was selling a late 70s 25footer. It was in very good shape and not just for a 35 year old boat but for any aged boat. But no diesel just the outboard so very little interest. I only used her 1 season when I decided that the o/b would not work for my intended eventual trip down the ICW. I was not in a rush to sell as I had no running expenses the boat being left on a mooring for the winter so I figured it is worth 1X why not advertise it for 2X and have room for haggling. Last month of the season - no interest. Some phone calls and emails but no one actually even showed up for a looksee. It stayed at that price until the late spring when I found a boat which was perfect for my purposes and needed the mooring for her. So I dropped the price to 1X. Same thing - very little interest for about a month (May) then 2 guys show up in early June and like her on the spot. They seemed like total newbies but are being advised, first behind the scenes and later in person, by a wily old salt. To make a long story short, later same day, after the old salt had a look they pull out a wad of cash, exactly 1/2 of 1X asking price and make an offer "as is, no contingencies" saying that's all they have to offer. Meanwhile while I was showing them around the boat we couldn't start the o/b as it was sitting on the boat all winter, albeit inside (it was never great running to begin with). I figured it'll cost me $$ to get it running as I am not an o/b knowledgeable at all and may be they will find something else in the meantime and I will have an extra boat on my hands as I already got the one I needed the mooring for. So I happily took up their offer. A bit later it turned out they had an extra few $$ with them but I figured that'll go toward fixing the o/b.

Not once did I feel insulted or did they feel shy to make a low ball offer. But then again this was not a boat I felt any attachment to other than that it was a good boat in good shape. But considering the reality of multiboat ownership I would unload her for any price at that point, including giving her away which I was considering had these guys not shown up when they did.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Of course, based on your comments, you don't seem to be one who is comfortable negotiating so you would like the Saturn experiment but in practice it flopped.

As you point out the used car market is even more prone to negotiation just like the used boat market and the boat market is even more variable as the volume is so much lower that comparable prices are much harder to come by.

I don't think you should presume to know someone from an Internet forum encounter. I have never purchased a new Saturn, have wheeled and dealed
On everyone I have purchased, have haggled every major
purchase and lots of minor ones, right down to suits at a major retail chain. I have negotiated employment contracts for salary and benefits for over 200 people. So I would suggest I have no issue with negotiating. And after all that, I would never offer someone 50% of the market value of a good boat in demand,
that was correctly priced. That would demonstrate that I don't know how to value and negotiate, the seller will instantly know it, and now I've lost all credibility with them.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

I don't think you should presume to know someone from an Internet forum encounter. I have never purchased a new Saturn, have wheeled and dealed
On everyone I have purchased, have haggled every major
purchase and lots of minor ones, right down to suits at a major retail chain. I have negotiated employment contracts for salary and benefits for over 200 people. So I would suggest I have no issue with negotiating. And after all that, I would never offer someone 50% of the market value of a good boat in demand, that was correctly priced. That would demonstrate that I don't know how to value and negotiate, the seller will instantly know it, and now I've lost all credibility with them.

The problem is - very few boats fit that description even when new.

[tuffr2]

Simple supply / demand with a few special montivated seller or buyer situations. Typically a boat is costing the seller sitting in the slip. Typically the seller needs the money to buy something else. A boat on the market for one day will not typically be discounted as much as a boat on the market for 1 year.

If the buyer falls in love with a boat then much of the buyers leverage is gone.

Good luck

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

A few seasons ago I was selling a late 70s 25footer. It was in very good shape and not just for a 35 year old boat but for any aged boat. But no diesel just the outboard so very little interest. I only used her 1 season when I decided that the o/b would not work for my intended eventual trip down the ICW. I was not in a rush to sell as I had no running expenses the boat being left on a mooring for the winter so I figured it is worth 1X why not advertise it for 2X and have room for haggling. Last month of the season - no interest. Some phone calls and emails but no one actually even showed up for a looksee. It stayed at that price until the late spring when I found a boat which was perfect for my purposes and needed the mooring for her. So I dropped the price to 1X. Same thing - very little interest for about a month (May) then 2 guys show up in early June and like her on the spot. They seemed like total newbies but are being advised, first behind the scenes and later in person, by a wily old salt. To make a long story short, later same day, after the old salt had a look they pull out a wad of cash, exactly 1/2 of 1X asking price and make an offer "as is, no contingencies" saying that's all they have to offer. Meanwhile while I was showing them around the boat we couldn't start the o/b as it was sitting on the boat all winter, albeit inside (it was never great running to begin with). I figured it'll cost me $$ to get it running as I am not an o/b knowledgeable at all and may be they will find something else in the meantime and I will have an extra boat on my hands as I already got the one I needed the mooring for. So I happily took up their offer. A bit later it turned out they had an extra few $$ with them but I figured that'll go toward fixing the o/b.

Not once did I feel insulted or did they feel shy to make a low ball offer. But then again this was not a boat I felt any attachment to other than that it was a good boat in good shape. But considering the reality of multiboat ownership I would unload her for any price at that point, including giving her away which I was considering had these guys not shown up when they did.

Old 25 ft non-runners are a dime a dozen. They really have no value. (Trailererables are a different story.)
The proof is that you were willing to give it away.
50% of nothing is nothing. That they offered you something as a courtesy
is something. You did well to get rid of it and get something for it.

[Suijin]

A broker once told me that it can take up to two years for some owners to come to terms with the real market value of their boat. He told me this in relation to a boat he was representing, saying that it was in poor shape but the owner had unrealistic expectations about what it would sell for since it was a classic. It was listed at $140k, and he said "In a year or two, it will sell for $75k." The owner refused offer after offer, but finally gave in and the boat sold 18 months later for $77k.

A lot of boat pricing comes down to what other boats of the same make and model are selling for on the market, or have sold for in recent months. Even then it can be difficult comparing them, with different layouts, equipment, states of maintenance, location, etc. More unique boats obviously are even more difficult to value. But it comes down just as much to what the seller is willing to take and what the buyer is willing to pay, and that's highly circumstantial.

I think you can that generally speaking boats on Yachtworld sell for 10-20% less than their list price, but that does not do you any good as a guide to what an individual boat's real market value is and what it will sell for.

[hsi88]

Its a buyers market and has been for some time. I would not even go back more than a year to see a boat's value. I have seen a significant drop in boat values in just the few years I have been back in boating. And these are all fairly popular boats. Like some people have mentioned, that lowball offer may be the only offer you get. Things like location, equipment, even cushion patterns can turn people off and affect what you think the sale price should be.

I have gone to great lengths to pick up boats, motorcycles and even cars, sometimes flying to the location with hopes of using the vehicle to get me back (so far, so good). But there is a limit. I wouldn't buy a boat on the west coast because of location, so boat prices there have no relevance to boat prices on the Chesapeake, where I boat. These are all things that have to be considered. And also as a seller, do you want to continue paying slip fees or other maintenance cost or risk that a freak accident or storm might damage the boat. More things to consider. I'm a firm believer that a bird in hand is worth 2 in the bush.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by hsi88

Its a buyers market and has been for some time. I would not even go back more than a year to see a boat's value. I have seen a significant drop in boat values in just the few years I have been back in boating. And these are all fairly popular boats. Like some people have mentioned, that lowball offer may be the only offer you get. Things like location, equipment, even cushion patterns can turn people off and affect what you think the sale price should be.

I have gone to great lengths to pick up boats, motorcycles and even cars, sometimes flying to the location with hopes of using the vehicle to get me back (so far, so good). But there is a limit. I wouldn't buy a boat on the west coast because of location, so boat prices there have no relevance to boat prices on the Chesapeake, where I boat. These are all things that have to be considered. And also as a seller, do you want to continue paying slip fees or other maintenance cost or risk that a freak accident or storm might damage the boat. More things to consider. I'm a firm believer that a bird in hand is worth 2 in the bush.

You've got that right. Everything else being equal boats in salt water in the sunshine belt sell for a lot less than freshwater northern boats.

Prior to the financial crisis in 2008, boats that were maintained well, with upgraded electronics, some other new goodies, fresh canvas, and newer sails, pretty much held their value indefinitely. ie, a 20 year old boat would sell for close to what it was originally bought for from the dealer.

In the US, the boat market took about a 50% nose dive in 2008. While used prices rebounded a bit by 2012, they have never come back to what they were.

The amazing thing is that new boat lengths and prices continue to escalate at a rate higher than inflation, while used prices remain sluggish, with significant inventory. (The darn things were just built too well and last too long.)

There are a few models that break the rules. Bayfield's held their value better than most until 2008. Now, only the 36's seem to be holding on (likely due to the lower production volume than 29's and 32's and because 36 is the new 30. ;-)

Presently in Ontario, good boats, around 10 years old, are in high demand and commanding solid resale value. Beyond 15 years old, (about the limit for walk through transoms), the values diminish rapidly with age, even for very well maintained boat. But at any age, well maintained boats sell easier. Old junk is, well, old junk, and nobody wants it except for the rare unfortunate soul who hasn't figured out he'll have more into than he could have bought a better boat for, and spent more time sailing rather than working on it.

[kmacdonald]

^ Yep. Island Packet closed their door because they couldn't sell new boats when the price of used ones was so low.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

I don't think you should presume to know someone from an Internet forum encounter. I have never purchased a new Saturn, have wheeled and dealed
On everyone I have purchased, have haggled every major
purchase and lots of minor ones, right down to suits at a major retail chain. I have negotiated employment contracts for salary and benefits for over 200 people. So I would suggest I have no issue with negotiating. And after all that, I would never offer someone 50% of the market value of a good boat in demand,
that was correctly priced. That would demonstrate that I don't know how to value and negotiate, the seller will instantly know it, and now I've lost all credibility with them.

Your statements so far are inconsistent with someone who bargains but hey, if you say one thing and do another, you won't be the first.

If you are selling an F150, pricing it right makes a lot of sense because you can literally find hundreds or thousands within 20miles of any major city. There are well established pricing estimates including adjustments for equipment and condition. It's easy to find the going rate and if you deviate significantly, you either lose money on a quick sale or no one will even call because you priced it too high. Plus for most people it costs little or nothing to sit on it for 6-12 months waiting for a buyer. Also buying a few hundred miles away can be done without incurring a major expense opening up a larger selection and further applying the law of averages.

With cruising boats, it's unusual for a model to have even 100 built per year. Many models are in the single digits. Outfitting varies wildly and owners often don't understand the $20k electronic system that is 10yrs old adds almost nothing to the final sale price. There may be damage that the owner isn't even aware of. Storage for a cruising boat is typically measured in thousands per year. If the boat isn't local, a buyer not ready to go full time (as most are) must discount to cover the cost of getting it home which often means thousands in transport costs.

The idea that you can expect the typical seller to set the "correct" price is ludicrous. As a buyer, prices will be all over the map and the only way to find out what the market will bear is to test the market with a low offer.

Reality, is the typical owner doesn't have the information to set a "correct" price and brokers often steer owners for their own purposes (an underpriced boat may cost him 10-20% of his commission but it will sell quickly with negligible effort). With so much variation, the asking prices are just that asking. They have almost no bearing on what the "correct" price is.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Suijin

A broker once told me that it can take up to two years for some owners to come to terms with the real market value of their boat.

Or longer. I knew a guy who had a boat that he wanted to sell. This was about 6-7 years ago. He had the classic state-of-the-art electronics suite, but now 10 years old. He had made a number of modifications that he though were great, but of course only made the boat perfect for HIM, not for anyone else. He thought he was going to get all of his money back and then some. He priced the boat at $140k. I told him he was unlikely to get more than $100k for it, and would probably have to take less. He said, "Well, I'm not going to GIVE IT AWAY!"

About a year later he got an offer from a guy for $95k. He got insulted and again, said "I'm not going GIVE IT AWAY!"

About a year after that he lowered his asking price to $110k. Of course, in the meantime he had probably spent at least $10k on docking, insurance, registration, etc.

He got an offer of $90k and again... You guessed it, "I'm not going GIVE IT AWAY!"

It was about two years after that, close to five years after he first put it on the market, that he sold it for $85k. But, boy is he glad that he didn't "GIVE IT AWAY!"

Unfortunately, I think there are a lot of sellers out there just like him. They are completely delusional about what their boat is really worth. About what they should get back from the modifications they made, or the electronics they added 10 years ago (hint: expect NOTHING back!). So relatively nice boats, that could sell quickly and provide someone with great pleasure, sit at the dock, and sit on the market, because they are ridiculously over-priced. But don't worry, the seller is not going to GIVE IT AWAY!

[alansmith]

Rambling thank you for your ideas on reporter.

[barnakiel]

It is a buyers market and it will be so for a while.

The simple reason is, unlike cars, most boats are not bound to a junkyard towards the end of their (surprisingly long, eh?) life but rather die out tied up in marinas, mispriced.

There is a steady and constant inflow of boats on the market. The number of buyers is shrinking while the old boats remain on the market.

Result?

One day the govts will catch up with the opportunity to tax us even more and introduce obligatory disposal of all boats older than 25 y.

Meanwhile, we are enjoying the buyer's market!

b.