Average Discount to Price

[DsquareD]

I'm starting to think that a boat that sells close to the list price was probably priced too low.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by tms

Isn't there a way to get a listing of recent comparable sales? For example, I like the Leopard 40 and Lagoon 400, I would think there would be several of these sold the last couple years. Is there a database that can be accessed for sailboat buyers?

Yes there is, and in my case the PO was asking what he paid, cause we found that on that site. It was right about average for this model of boat, but this one had zip cruising gear which was uncommon for this model, it was however very lightly used, with ridiculously low engine hours. PO obviously had figured out he paid too much, and I believe was just ready to get rid of the thing and move on. Fro me the light use and good price offset the lack of cruising gear.

[barnakiel]

I think we rediscovered that there is no rule. Just like the earlier threads.

What I have discovered is that old continental blood runs deep in US veins. I imagined the US people just price like 25% above their expectations and then haggle. Now I have learned the spectrum of American haggling practices is as broad as the particular religion/culture your grandparents came from.

Haggle if the seller is John Antonelli, but expect a bullet thru your head if you throw a low ball at John Vanderberg.

It is so much easier on the old continent: most Italians still overprice and haggle, they also tend to live in Italy; while them Dutch price things aright (and avoid haggling), in the Neterlands.

The big one nation one market experiment apparently does not work.

;-)

Cheers,
b.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Someone bought into GM's marketing with the Saturn line. Didn't go so well for GM.

Big ticket items, negotiating and bargaining is well worth the hassle.

Trouble was, the no dicker pricing worked well for new purchases that GM could control.

But the no dicker pricing on used cars in Saturn lots didn't work at all, as they couldn't control the selling price at other used lots.

I was so disappointed when The Saturn "S" series ended. The engine was bullet proof. The SS exhaust lasted forever. The polymer bodies looked great after 10 years of driving salted highways. All in all, great cars, we owned an SLI and 2 SC2's, and bought our daughter an SC2.

Then they dropped the initial philosophy and the successors to the "S" series floundered. Had they hung in, dickered on the used lot, and GM not floundered in general, I think (wish actually) they would have done alright.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Trouble was, the no dicker pricing worked well for new purchases that GM could control.

But the no dicker pricing on used cars in Saturn lots didn't work at all, as they couldn't control the selling price at other used lots.

Then they dropped the initial philosophy and the successors to the "S" series floundered. Had they hung in, dickered on the used lot, and GM not floundered in general, I think (wish actually) they would have done alright.

Of course, based on your comments, you don't seem to be one who is comfortable negotiating so you would like the Saturn experiment but in practice it flopped.

As you point out the used car market is even more prone to negotiation just like the used boat market and the boat market is even more variable as the volume is so much lower that comparable prices are much harder to come by.

[Cadence]

The whole thing is somewhat not answerable, to many variables. The largest may be the ability of the potential buyer and seller? I'd rather have a son or brother do my bidding, both are better than me at haggling.

[robert sailor]

Brokers have a site called "Soldboat", it lists the actual selling price of each boat sold thru a broker. I was able to get a pass word for this site and I had a very good list of every boat of our type that had been sold. You can select the dates and I used the last 5 years. Some people think that some of these sold numbers have been inflated and I'm sure it may have happened here and there but the brokers I talked to said that they were very confident in the numbers as it was a service for brokers only. You get a brief description and the original asking price and what it actually sold for. Great info when doing your due diligence. If you know a friendly broker he may give you the info you need.

[Caribbeachbum]

Almost everyone involved in a yacht sale has incentive to inflate the final selling price:

- The selling broker gets bragging points; and a real selling point for picking up new listings if he or she is seen to fetch top dollar.

- The seller gets to feel better about at least other people thinking he got top dollar for his boat.

- The buyer, having bought the boat, sees a future sale of the boat as working out better for him if the "comparables" are inflated; and if the last selling price was higher.

- The buyer's broker really has no incentive to exaggerate the selling price. But she has a strong incentive not to report the selling broker for inflating the price, because hey, she might be the selling broker next time ..

I'm told that most of the time the soldboats.com pricing information is correct. But keep in mind how people behave when they have incentives ...

Also, as far as I know, any buyer's broker will share the soldboats.com comparables with a client. Though the ones who'll just share their user name and password are not common at all.

-

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Again if an owner prices a boat 100% more than it's worth, they are likely expecting 50% of asking price, hoping they find somebody stupid enough to pay more. If the purchaser offers 50% less, and the owner accepts, how much of a deal did the purchaser get? ZERO.

If an owner prices a boat properly, they are expecting (and will get) close to what they are asking (unless they are stupid, in which case that is a terrible boat to buy, because the owner was stupid and most likely did lots of stupid things to it, in which case, the actual selling price was correct after all).

By all means, offer way less on over-priced boats, but don't waste everyone's time offering way less on properly priced boats at or near fair market, it won't get anyone anywhere.

The problem is owner's are influenced by brokers. Brokers are influenced by other brokers. No one really knows. for sure. To some extent it's the same in real estate. In a bubble, houses sell the day of listing with multiple offers above the listing price. These people didn't intentionally leave money on the table to start with.

For boats, the example I gave early in this discussion is relevant. At that time there were I think 5 Hans Christian 38's listed in the US. They were all listed at $135k to $138k. My boat was loaded with gear and in good shape. I would guess the best shape of the 5. 1.5 years later I sold at $90k... 66% of listing price.... and of course several thousand $ in moorage and insurance costs had been accumulated by then.

[Island Time O25]

The brokers of course want as high of a price in the sold database. But in most states when you establish a price for the purpose of the sales tax you can separate all the sails, cushions, electronics and most other "movable" gear (BBQ grills, TVs, tools, etc). Thus the buyer should insist on separate bills of sale and price the remaining hull and engine accordingly. I am not sure about the standing rigging as I was given a conflicting advice on that (one was that if buying a boat with mast down and rigging detached the mast and rigging are "movables" but if with mast on it is not) but the running rigging can certainly be separated from the hull cost. So on say $100K boat you may actually have hull and engine value of only $50K. Many buyers don't realize this because the brokers don't want them to lower the selling price for the database. In any case consult your tax accountant.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

The problem is owner's are influenced by brokers. Brokers are influenced by other brokers. No one really knows. for sure. To some extent it's the same in real estate. In a bubble, houses sell the day of listing with multiple offers above the listing price. These people didn't intentionally leave money on the table to start with.

For boats, the example I gave early in this discussion is relevant. At that time there were I think 5 Hans Christian 38's listed in the US. They were all listed at $135k to $138k. My boat was loaded with gear and in good shape. I would guess the best shape of the 5. 1.5 years later I sold at $90k... 66% of listing price.... and of course several thousand $ in moorage and insurance costs had been accumulated by then.

Since the used boat market never has any bubbles (only bursting bubbles I guess) IMO your case is more typical than not. For every real customer with $$ there are literally dozens of boats in his price range withing 50-100 miles drive. And if he's willing to drive extra 50-100 miles the count is in the hundreds. More often than not the problem as I noticed is not the price but the condition, logistics and costs of getting the boat to where one wants it to end up at, etc.

My marine pro buddy used to buy post hurricane boats to fix and re-sell. In early 2001 he got a boat for good price, fixed it up and altogether had about $50-60K into it plus his own labor. But the book value in very good shape (to which he brought her) was $150K so he priced her at $139K thinking to sell her at first offer over $120K or thereabouts. There were very few interested people and even fewer who showed up for a look see. One guy came in, did not look the nautical type but had a cashier check for $90K in hand and was willing to go to the bank to cash it from his account and give my friend cash. My fiend balked thinking he can get more (he still is ashamed by this stupidity 15 years later). The guy walked away never to come back. And them a few weeks later 9/11 happened and my friend got stuck with the boat for a while eventually selling her for $$ he had into her meaning his labor was free or close to it. That was the last boat he tried to flip even though before that time he was doing OK flipping boats purchased for $10-15K for $40-50Kafter a month or two of work more than once.

I was offered a late 70s C&C 36' for free, i.e for the cost to haul it away from the guy's yard (hull and rigging were in great shape) but after calculating the cost of redoing the interior (it was severely damaged by water), rebuilding the engine, new cushions, etc I passed. Many old boats are just negative equity and even for free are not worth touching.

[SVNeko]

5 pages of blather to conclude that each deal is unique. Buy the boat you want for the price that feels right, and vice versa when selling. That's about it.

[sailorboy1]

Is this another thread that is more interested in getting a "deal" than a good boat?

I haven't read all the posts but I think I got my first boat (1988 Cal 39) for 15% less than asking (that was my offer) and my current boat that is a 2001 Hunter 410 for asking price because it already was the second lowest priced one in the world. Both these were during the recent recession so I had money and others had a boat.

A nboat is never a "deal" so get one that matches yourwants and pocket book and stop worrying about the "deal".

[kmacdonald]

It's best to get a friend loosen up the seller with a low ball offer, about 80% off list, and then come in with an offer at 50 or 60% off.

[cpt_757]

Depends on boats. I made an offer once for 40% discount since I thought that was the right price and the boss of broker was quite upset and the seller was really mad., then looks like still not sold even close to my offered price.