Are you put off sailing in the EU?

[Hartings]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I never said anything about the Caymans, what I did say was many Greeks, other EU citizens and Turks use Delaware LLC Reg to avoid liabilities for these taxes and requirements.. I know personally 2 Portuguese friends with LLC's.
I also said as an EU citizen I was not liable for CE Compliance or VAT on arrival in Europe as the boat was my only home.. Those liabilities would only kick in if I came to sell the boat in the EU.
CE compulsory for me before I could legally sell her, VAT either myself or the new owner depending on agreements reached during negotiations.
This is from personal experience with a NC Hunter 37 I bought and sailed to the UK.
Oh.. and the only live in 'property' I have ever owned has been boats.. just saying if you've not walked it you dont know it.

Turkey is not in the EU so don’t quite understand that one - Greeks don’t pay taxes that’s why they needed to be bailed out by the EU - I think you will find they are now one of the most difficult places to visit if you don’t have your documents in order ......I repeat it is irrelevant where you register your boat what counts is where you are domiciled. It’s really not that complicated - it would seem you are not domiciled in the EU so QED - I don’t think we are really disagreeing with each other ?

My point in reply to the other guy was that establishing a Cayman Company isn’t going to get your around VAT liability if you are EU resident and a private yacht owner rather than running it as a (genuine) commercial business

[B23iL23]

Originally Posted by Hartings

Boatman61 - it was this geezer that I was taking umbrage with - I apologise to you

"this geezer"? Wow. Not what I expected.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Hartings

Boatman61 - it was this geezer that I was taking umbrage with - I apologise to you

No apologies needed.. but I appreciate the sentiments.

Oh, I am a UK national with a Portuguese residency but not really 'domiciled' anywhere.. Many have tried and failed..

[Chotu]

I think this thred is answering the OP's question nicely.

All of this is a nightmare. For half the price, you can fly to the EU and stay in different cities all over the area for YEARS in Airbnbs.

This thread shows why people want to go there, but give it a miss.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by boatman61

There's those who do it.. and those just speculate about it.
Loopholes are built into all regulations, thats how the rich get richer.

Of course, those "rich" that are being pointed to have multimillion dollar yatchs where avoiding vat is more than the average cruiser's entire boat costs.

With that kind of savings, you can hire a team of accountants and lawyers (which they probably have already) to get the paperwork exactly right and fight it if challenged.

Plus the official is likely considering that those guys in 50m yatchs likely have connections that can make his life miserable. They also tend to dump more money into the local economy in a day than your average cruiser does in a year.

The guy in the 10m dingy and a worn out t-shirt, the official knows who can make who's life miserable.

So saying that big mega yatchs are flagged out of the caymans really isn't relevant unless you have a big mega yatch.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Of course, those "rich" that are being pointed to have multimillion dollar yatchs where avoiding vat is more than the average cruiser's entire boat costs.

With that kind of savings, you can hire a team of accountants and lawyers (which they probably have already) to get the paperwork exactly right and fight it if challenged.

Plus the official is likely considering that those guys in 50m yatchs likely have connections that can make his life miserable. They also tend to dump more money into the local economy in a day than your average cruiser does in a year.

The guy in the 10m dingy and a worn out t-shirt, the official knows who can make who's life miserable.

So saying that big mega yatchs are flagged out of the caymans really isn't relevant unless you have a big mega yatch.

Actually anyone who has actually been out there will tell you that the Stars and Stripes are flown on boats of all sizes from 20ft and up.. Rich folk go Cayman..

[nhsailor]

Some interested info I found, not sure if it was posted here before.


For U.S. citizens, France has a bilateral agreement that allows the US citizens to stay an additional 90 days beyond the Schengen limit – without a visa!! Seriously. You can spend another 90 days in France. You can enter from any Schengen country, stay 90 days in France, and then fly home. But you have to go home. You can’t go elsewhere. You have to leave Europe so you can’t use your time in France as a sneaky way to reset your Schengen clock.

Now, the France / US rule is tricky. Multiple French consulates told me yes, they thought this law existed but couldn’t tell me where to find it. They just referred me to France’s general rules on immigration. A few visa services told me I was crazy. One consulate told me it was possible but only with a long-term visa.

BUT, after many calls, the embassy told me that yes, this law does and that yes, this is still valid. Then they referenced me to the French national archives.

And we found it. We found the actual diplomatic papers that spell this out. It took us close to a year to find it but we did

And this is the note from the French government about it:


Hi,

There is a bilateral agreement between French and the US by exchange letters (March 16-31 mars 1949), which allows American citizens to stay in France 90 days over 180 days, irrespective of the stays already made in other Schengen countries.

However, this agreement has been made before the Schengen agreement. Today, as there is no more border control between the Schengen countries, it is very difficult to determine how long a person has stayed in France and we heard that some people had troubles with the immigration police while leaving France.

Therefore, we recommend American citizens to respect the Schengen regulation which allows a maximum of 90 days on 180 days in the whole Schengen area.

Consulat général de France, Service des visas
4101 Reservoir Road, Washington DC, 20007

A follow to they gave me this response:

“Whilst the bilateral agreement you refer to has not officially been revoked, the French Border Police has sole authority on deciding whether to apply it or not, at the time of entering or exiting the Schengen area.”

And this was confirmed by the embassy in London too.

So this is really a thing – and while they don’t like you using it – it’s still the law. Just bring proof you stayed in France for 90 days!

Additionally, Denmark and Poland also have bilateral agreements with the United States that let citizens stay an additional 90 days in each country separate from the regular Schengen Zone visa. The Denmark rule applies the same way as the French one. You must travel directly from another Schengen country to Denmark. After your stay in Denmark, you cannot transit through other Schengen countries to get back to the US, you will have to fly directly or transit through non-Schengen zones. The Denmark additional 90-day stay is applicable for citizens of Australia, Canada, Chile, Israel, Japan, Malaysia, New Zealand, Singapore, South Korea and the US.

If you want to visit Poland, you must enter and leave Poland via a non-Schengen country where you will be stamped again (i.e., direct flight from NYC). So you could do 90 days in the Schengen, fly to the UK, and then fly to Poland.

Now, in theory, one could say thanks to borderless travel you could get your “extra 90 days in Denmark” and then just travel around, fly out of Denmark, and no one would be the wiser. One could say that. But I’ve noticed a lot more intra-Europe passport checks in the last year in the wake of the refugee crisis and rise of right-wing governments across the continent. I got yelled at in France for not having my passport with me while on a train to see a chateau. I wouldn’t recommend being super careless about this but, in theory, I guess it could be done.

Note: Poland’s rules are simply laid out in an agreement letter the US and Poland signed in 1991.

[TJ D]

Cruising Europe...
We have done it for the last 3 years, and have found it to be not all that tough with the officials, honestly.



We have been boarded 3 times in our time, the first was in Ireland, where the customs man couldn't have cared less about VAT. He just wanted to make sure that we hadn't brought any drugs with us from the Caribbean.


#2 was the UK border force. These people were polite, professional, and very good at their jobs. They were very much on the lookout for EU residents trying to get around VAT by various schemes. I think if one were an EU resident trying to escape tax via some offshore ownership, you may have had a problem with these folks.



#3 was in the Spanish Rias, and they really just wanted to say hello. Just a cursory check of papers.



I think the main point is that if you're an EU resident on a non-charter yacht, and you own the company it's owned under, you're possibly asking for trouble.




One thing we've learned in our travels, is that each member state interprets things differently. Sometimes 180 degrees different. My wife was an EU resident until recently, and we asked the UK and Germany exactly the same question about whether or not her being on board would trigger VAT while I was out of the EU, and we received completely different answers from each country.


When we asked UK border force the same question during our boarding, they flatly said that they didn't care a bit either way.



It's a bit maddening, but quite worth it in our opinion. We've utilized the Channel islands, Gib, and the Canaries in our travels. Easy business.

[Sojourner]

EU flag boat, had no problems in the EU the past 2 years (last 1 full time liveaboard). Never boarded, once in Sardinia the papers over the side in a landing net to the guardia boat (done in 10 min), only waves hello from the coast guard boats in France, Spain, rest of Italy, and now 3 months in Greece. I'm almost getting bummed I paid that new tax, cause nobody's checked yet. In fact, no marina in Greece has so much as looked at my boat papers or even asked for a passport. Last one, I asked what do you need from me? He said, I just need your money. Done and dusted