Are you put off sailing in the EU?

[B23iL23]

To get around the vat issue create a company in the Caymans and transfer the boat ownership into it. You can then bring it into the EU vat free for up to 18 months.

[toolbar]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Also, CE is only compulsory when the time comes to sell the boat on.

That ist unfortunately not correct. To import the boat, you need to have it CE certified. However: wasn't Chotu's boat homebuilt? Then there is an exception.

Paul

[Hartings]

Originally Posted by B23iL23

To get around the vat issue create a company in the Caymans and transfer the boat ownership into it. You can then bring it into the EU vat free for up to 18 months.

No ! That absolutely doesn’t work. They will look at who has beneficial ownership and that’s you not some corporation in the Caymans.
Anyone contemplating this should take proper advice - seriously.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Montanan

I'm not certain but I believe that being a resident or a citizen of the EU country makes one subject immediately liable for VAT and import / custom duties if they bring in a non-VAT paid boat into the EU [and / or import a foreign made boat]. The registration / documentation of the boat is not the determining factor, the status of the owner(s) determines when and if VAT and import duties are due. At least that is how I recall such matters.

Ahh.. The way I got round that was straightforward..
The boat was my home, I owned nor rented any property in the UK or elsewhere so VAT & CE were only liable if and when I decided to sell the boat in the EU.
Could be the UK is more relaxed about old boats than Germany.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by toolbar

That ist unfortunately not correct. To import the boat, you need to have it CE certified. However: wasn't Chotu's boat homebuilt? Then there is an exception.

Paul

My boat was privately built. Professionally, but not for profit and not for sale. So yes. Let's call that home built. We can say I did it in my back yard by myself on weekends.

[Hartings]

Originally Posted by cahlgren

Sorry if the updates are sparse - there hasn't been much new news. We left Portugal almost a month ago, the marina manager who signed the impound notice will have a meeting with the Customs legal office in a week or so (if Customs follows up), the EC Commission has stated that we have not abused the temporary importation process and we have about another 60 days to appeal our case. We have no indication that this is over, so we wait - outside Portugal.

Does anyone know if there were any further updates from cahlgren on this issue ? Would be great to know how this eventually played out. Did they do a midnight flit from Portugal ?

[B23iL23]

Is that your opinion or are you a certified tax consultant?



Look around at any of the super yachts - they don't have Georgetown or Hamilton on their ass ends because they love the islands -it's there because these owners do exactly what I said and as such can avail of the temporary import status. I look around me in Antibes and 90% of the yachts are registered abroad.



Another example is why so many private aircraft are registered in the Isle of Man - they get to fly all over Europe with their EU owners and have paid zero vat (EU doesn't like it but that's the rules.)



I'm currently on a boat that is flagged outside the EU, owned by a business (beneficial owners are an EU family) and is on a temporary exemption for vat in Europe. It spends 6 months cruising Europe and 6 months outside and has done this for the last 6 years.

Originally Posted by Hartings

No ! That absolutely doesn’t work. They will look at who has beneficial ownership and that’s you not some corporation in the Caymans.
Anyone contemplating this should take proper advice - seriously.

[Hartings]

I assume it’s run as a business - as are the super yachts , commercial enterprises are subject to different rules, mate. Do some research......

[B23iL23]

Only if for Charter and only if over certain sizes (depends and where you register). Private yachts owned by a business are not subject to the same rules.


Btw - I have done research. I've spoken to yacht management companies, brokers who do this as a business, every day in Europe. I've checked their advice with legal and accountants and this is how it is. Heck even Malta will put your private yacht into a "lease" agreement (say 10 euros a year) and you are only liable to 5% vat at the end of the lease (say 10 years). If you choose to move out of the EU after that you can even get your 5% back if you argue strongly enough.

Originally Posted by Hartings

I assume it’s run as a business - as are the super yachts , commercial enterprises are subject to different rules, mate. Do some research......

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by B23iL23

Only if for Charter and only if over certain sizes (depends and where you register). Private yachts owned by a business are not subject to the same rules.


Btw - I have done research. I've spoken to yacht management companies, brokers who do this as a business, every day in Europe. I've checked their advice with legal and accountants and this is how it is. Heck even Malta will put your private yacht into a "lease" agreement (say 10 euros a year) and you are only liable to 5% vat at the end of the lease (say 10 years). If you choose to move out of the EU after that you can even get your 5% back if you argue strongly enough.

There's those who do it.. and those just speculate about it.
Loopholes are built into all regulations, thats how the rich get richer.

[Hartings]

We are all entitled to our own views - everything I have been told tells me you are completely wrong. Think about it - if you were right then everyone would be at it - that’s not the case because as a private yacht it’s the domicile of the owner that dictates the liability for VAT. Malta ain’t as simple as you are trying to make out either.

[boatman61]

Sell all your property, fly to the States/Caribe, buy a non VAT/CE boat then sail back and declare it as your only home and see..
Its like when I bought a French reg boat that had been in SMX for 4yrs.. everyone said I would get clobbered regardless St Martin being a French island..
Guess what.. not an eyelid was batted when I got her back to the EU.

[Hartings]

Hold on ! So now I have to sell all my property ! Why would I want to do that ? If I am non-EU resident I know I can get 18 months in the Med. That’s not what you originally said. Your claim was that if me, or any other EU resident uses a Cayman company then we are not liable for VAT. I’m saying that all the advice I have received tells me that is simply untrue.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Hartings

Hold on ! So now I have to sell all my property ! Why would I want to do that ? If I am non-EU resident I know I can get 18 months in the Med. That’s not what you originally said. Your claim was that if me, or any other EU resident uses a Cayman company then we are not liable for VAT. I’m saying that all the advice I have received tells me that is simply untrue.

I never said anything about the Caymans, what I did say was many Greeks, other EU citizens and Turks use Delaware LLC Reg to avoid liabilities for these taxes and requirements.. I know personally 2 Portuguese friends with LLC's.
I also said as an EU citizen I was not liable for CE Compliance or VAT on arrival in Europe as the boat was my only home.. Those liabilities would only kick in if I came to sell the boat in the EU.
CE compulsory for me before I could legally sell her, VAT either myself or the new owner depending on agreements reached during negotiations.
This is from personal experience with a NC Hunter 37 I bought and sailed to the UK.
Oh.. and the only live in 'property' I have ever owned has been boats.. just saying if you've not walked it you dont know it.

[Hartings]

Originally Posted by B23iL23

To get around the vat issue create a company in the Caymans and transfer the boat ownership into it. You can then bring it into the EU vat free for up to 18 months.

Boatman61 - it was this geezer that I was taking umbrage with - I apologise to you