ARC 2015

[barnakiel]

As expected, some of the crews resolved to scratch the bashing part and search comfort elsewhere. It will be interesting if the split results in any disadvantage to the 'S' band. It seems the foremost of this group may actually be able to at least match the W going band, should the long term forecast hold.

b.

[arsenelupiga]

amazing performance of 2 cats in arc +.

L38 especially. Considering water line, this condomaran is way ahead of similar length racing monos & cats including azuree 46.Next shortest waterline boat ahead of L38 is 49 ft mono, and then immediately goes to 50+ and even quicker to 60+ ft. Fastest boat is around 7% ahead, so in average 7% faster. As I said, every 1/100 costs lots of gold.

So, condomarans are 15 to 25 % faster than similar length mono over decent track seem about right.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

As expected, some of the crews resolved to scratch the bashing part and search comfort elsewhere. It will be interesting if the split results in any disadvantage to the 'S' band. It seems the foremost of this group may actually be able to at least match the W going band, should the long term forecast hold.

b.

That's what I mean and that's what explain the division this year not in two main courses, a faster and less comfortable and a slower more comfortable, but in many options. Even regarding the faster one I have doubts if it will be the one more to the North, since this year the difference in strength is not very noticeable. That's why some fast boats chose a more direct route.

The real skill is to avoid that patch of light winds making the lesser detour needed.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

We cannot tell which one is poorly sailed from here. Same designs may be differently loaded and fly different sails too. Their speeds will vary wildly. Also, speed is not the only factor, they are cruising, not racing. It is a RALLY, not a race. To get there later but in comfort and style is a win win.

b.

Came on, look at the tracker. I am talking of a Lagoon 560 and a Fountain Pajot 47 sailed at the same pace of a Najad 35 that is not going fast, all that on medium winds.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

amazing performance of 2 cats in arc +.

L38 especially. Considering water line, this condomaran is way ahead of similar length racing monos & cats including azuree 46.Next shortest waterline boat ahead of L38 is 49 ft mono, and then immediately goes to 50+ and even quicker to 60+ ft. Fastest boat is around 7% ahead, so in average 7% faster. As I said, every 1/100 costs lots of gold.

So, condomarans are 15 to 25 % faster than similar length mono over decent track seem about right.

That as a generic conclusion is very odd...and wrong. Yes no doubt the Lagoon 38 is very well sailed, so well sailed that it is the first in compensated among all sailboats meaning the one that is sailed near its rating. Yest, the Catana 472 is also very well sailed.

But regarding generic statements you cannot look to the boats that are particularly well sailed or to the boats that are particularly badly sailed but to the all picture of performance regarding monohulls and multihulls.

Regarding that you can see that the ARC has been leaded by three monohulls, two of them being older boats, that there are two brand new bigger multihulls on the fleet that are being outperformed, that among the leading boats a Oyster 575, that is not a performance monohull is outsailing a Catana 582, that is a performance multihull.

That a Southerly 49, a Halberg Rassy 54, a Baltic 52, a Jeanneau 54ds, and a Oyster 545 are out performing a Leopard 48, a Fountain Pajot 67, a Lagoon 52, and a Fountain Pajot 57 among other cats.

A Oceanis 54, a Azuree 46 and a Jeanneau 49ds are outsailing a Fountain Pajot 67, a Lagoon 52, and a Fountain Pajot 57.

And that among the slower boats there are two recent cats, a Lagoon 39 and a a Lagoon 420-3 that are being outsailed by older and smaller monohulls like a Halberg Rassy 352, a Albin Stratus 36 and are being sailed at the same pace as a Laurin 32 and a Gib Sea 35.

Kind of funny that you found from all this that:

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

...
So, condomarans are 15 to 25 % faster than similar length mono over decent track seem about right.

[Polux]

On the ARC, very interesting that fight between the fastest of the Outremer 51 and the Neel 45. I would not have believed it possible. Sure the guys of Neel have a lot of talk about the speed of the boat and I was not impressed with the upwind speed, but downwind it is obvious that the Neel can go very fast.

Also the guys on the XP44 seem to have finally awaken and are going fast. The Little Dufour 34p continues to go amazingly fast. Chapeau to the Italian crew. They have been sailing among the fastest among the Lagoons (3 450) and at the same pace of the fastest 40ft monohulls (2 Pogo 12.50, Maestro 40).

And what to say about the Luffe 37 that is a bit ahead of the Dufour 34 chasing a very fast Grand Soleil 43 and not very far from the second Outremer 51?

I know the owner from the internet and I remember saying to him that I did not understand why he was buying the Luffe 37 instead of the faster and more modern designed Luffe 36 that is faster (and more expensive), particularly downwind. Well, I still believe that the Luffe 36 is faster downwind but I would never have believed on the performance of the old designed Luffe 37 downwind if I was not seeing it. I stand corrected on that and thank him for the demonstration

Another boat this is slowly catching up is the Pogo 50. Not yet a great performance but the boat is slowly approaching the Oyster light wave 48 that is being raced and having a great performance. Both have outsailed all the multihulls, including the second Outremer 51, with the exception of the fastest Outremer 51 and the Neel 45.

The Pogo 40 and the Knierim 49 went away from the two fastest multihulls and are having a very good performance. The Pogo40, even if not the latest and more performant model from Pogo, is outsailing a fast Oyster 825 and sailing at the same level of a Carroll 60!! very impressive if we compare the sizes and prices of the two boats. The Pogo, contrary to the Carroll is not a carbon boat.

The Knierim 49 is outsailing a Marteen 68 and sailing at the same pace of the BD80 and the Mistral 80!!! I want one of those!!!, I mean a Knierim 49, what a boat, with a nice cruising interior too.

Knierim makes fantastic performance cruisers, let remind you guys that in 2013 a Knierim 65 beaten the fastest multihull, a Gunboat 62 (one that is raced extensively) by two days and a half!!!
http://yb.tl/arcplus2015#

[hoppy]

Aside from perhaps the racing divisions, I don't think you can trust a comparison between yachts to judge their true performance when we just don't know how they are being crewed or even how they are equipped sail wise for the crossing.

Some boats will be fully crewed, some boats might appear fully crewed but in reality are shorthanded with "passengers", some will be shorthanded and some will effectively be solo with a watch whilst the sailor sleeps.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

amazing performance of 2 cats in arc +.

L38 especially. Considering water line, this condomaran is way ahead of similar length racing monos & cats including azuree 46.Next shortest waterline boat ahead of L38 is 49 ft mono, and then immediately goes to 50+ and even quicker to 60+ ft. Fastest boat is around 7% ahead, so in average 7% faster. As I said, every 1/100 costs lots of gold.

So, condomarans are 15 to 25 % faster than similar length mono over decent track seem about right.

PLS google on problems with drawing statistics-like sounding conclusions from small samples.

You can also read on offliers and regression to the mean.

In brief, your sample is not big enough, your data is biased and your conclusion is what you want to believe.

b.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Polux

Came on, look at the tracker. I am talking of a Lagoon 560 and a Fountain Pajot 47 sailed at the same pace of a Najad 35 that is not going fast, all that on medium winds.

Come on, it is a RALLY, face it! ;-) I am living here and I had to bear with them for nearly two months! If I admit I think they cannot sail, others will say I am biased! ;-)

Cats with dogs onboard, etc. Landtied mentality not conductive to efficient sailing.

b.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Come on, it is a RALLY, face it! ;-) I am living here and I had to bear with them for nearly two months! If I admit I think they cannot sail, others will say I am biased! ;-)

Cats with dogs onboard, etc. Landtied mentality not conductive to efficient sailing.
b.

No, it is a race and a rally. It has a racing division and you can tell the ones that have a racing spirit from the ones that don't care by the fuel that they waste and many waste or nothing or just enough to charge the batteries (look at the engine hours on the ARC+) and not only on the racing division.

If they were just cruising no reason not to use the engine on weak winds, once in a while to go faster. Many of the boats, or even most of the boats have a motoring ability of several days.

That Rally has a classification for all and even if I had only made a Rally I can tell you that we were there all to make the better we could do in a very friendly way and with sardines and red wine waiting at the finish. Nobody likes to be among the last. Maybe you like

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Polux

No, it is a race and a rally.

Nobody likes to be among the last. Maybe you like

No! ;-)

It is a rally (hence: Atlantic Rally for Cruisers), and there is a small racing division consisting of boats so varied that one does have to be a thru believer in handicaps to pay any attention to who "won" the "race". ;-)

And as far as being the first or the last then I have already won so many times and in so many ways that I stopped paying attention to winning and started concentrating on having fun riding (borrowed from a millionaire friend of ours).

ARC engine hours: like anything else in the fleet - will vary from nil to hundreds of hours. Often big luxurious boats will motor most - because they can.

Our engine hours last time around: 8 hours towards and 5 hours on our way back. We sail - because we can.

Flowers, off course,
b.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

PLS google on problems with drawing statistics-like sounding conclusions from small samples.

You can also read on offliers and regression to the mean.

In brief, your sample is not big enough, your data is biased and your conclusion is what you want to believe.

b.

logic: as boats are sailed slow, fast and everything in between, you have wives requsting to go slower, boys club,wives club, racer club, beer club, gays club... statistics means absolutely nothing.

The only meaningfull conclusion one gets to take best performers from each class, as these are likely sailed hard and rougly to similar level of experise. Rest is just noise. So, in this respect L38 and catana 47, follow closely/match best very expensive monos.

So, yeah, it does make sense.

[hoppy]

I see that the route on the tracking site has been changed from the traditional route to the rhumbline. I also noticed that multis look like monos now

[Polux]

Originally Posted by hoppy

I see that the route on the tracking site has been changed from the traditional route to the rhumbline. I also noticed that multis look like monos now

The Multis looking monos is just a glitch, the traditional line being substituted by the rhumbline has to do with what I said some days ago: on the traditional line there will be a big patch of weak winds in two or three days, lasting some days, so you have to pass North or South....or risk to be stranded there for two or three days....unless you use the engine and have tankage for that.

Also some days ago I said I had doubts what would be the more fast course, to the North of the traditional line or to the South. The guys that chose the South (fewer than the ones that went North) are going very fast and they have a better wind angle. Anyway, some difficult tactical decisions for all regarding where to be at 28. The next days after that will be difficult or easy depending where they will be and we will see a clear stretching among boats on the fleet.

For now, plenty of wind for all, maybe even too much for some less inexperienced crews.

Regarding those that go fast on the South route, a Farr 520 and surprise surprise, the More 55. it seems they have finally discover how to sail the boat fast (it is a brand new boat).

Another boats that bettered performances through the night: The Neel 45 that leaved the Outremer 51. The Outremer was overtaken by a X562 and has now side by side the Pogo 50 that passed the Oyster 48 light wave.

A Fountain Pajot 48 has overtaken the second Outremer 51 that his now sailing a bit behind a Grand Soleil 46 and at the same pace of a Jeanneau 57 and a Grand Soleil 52 with a Dufour 560 just a bit behind.

The Grand Soleil 43 is now on the tail of the second Outremer 51 chasing it and the fastest of the Lagoon 450 (one of the fastest cats on the ARC) is not now far away from that Outremer and sails a bit behind an Oyster 575.

That amazing Luffe 37 is not far from the 2th Outremer 51 as well as a Wauquiez 40s and a Jeanneau Sunfast 3600.

On a southern course (but not as South as the More and the Far) a Halberg Rassy 54, a Lagoon 560, a Jeanneau 54DS and a Lagoon 52 are doing good even if it is very hard to judge the comparative performance. They seem not be very far in distance over course from the 2th Outremer but I think they will be more penalized on that course on the days ahead.

Getting back to the head of the race, the Pogo40 continues to make a good race, being now 2th overall ahead of much bigger race boats, the guys on the Marten 67 seem to have awaken and are sailing fast, closing on the big Oyster 825 and BD80 and the knierim 49 seems to be a match for all those bigger boats. The Neel 45 trimaran is not very far behind.

Some more information regarding the racing version of the Neel 45: it has not only a bigger carbon mast and more sail area as it is a lighter boat with the furniture made with cored foam and a reinforced hull with carbon. I had a look at the IRC boat rating and it is considerably higher than the one of the Outremer 51 and that explains why it has leaved it behind so easily.

http://yb.tl/arcplus2015#

[Polux]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

logic: as boats are sailed slow, fast and everything in between, you have wives requsting to go slower, boys club,wives club, racer club, beer club, gays club... statistics means absolutely nothing.

The only meaningfull conclusion one gets to take best performers from each class, as these are likely sailed hard and rougly to similar level of experise. Rest is just noise. So, in this respect L38 and catana 47, follow closely/match best very expensive monos.

So, yeah, it does make sense.

"So, condomarans are 15 to 25 % faster than similar length mono over decent track seem about right."

Yes, lots of sense. You have made a generic statement that as any generic statment should be valid in any situation. Look at the average results on the ARC and ARC+ and you will see (I hope) that what you have said has not any sustainability in what regards ARC average performance of monohulls and multihulls.

Statistics mean nothing

By the way, your statement does not also make any sense in what regards the IRC rating of the boats (monohulls and condo cats) being many times condo cats slower than same sized modern monohulls and there is nothing better to have an idea of a real potential speed of a boat than a serious rating and IRC rating is one of the best.

Off course I am not talking about performance monohulls versus condo cats. In what regards rating and sailing potential performance monohulls are faster, but rating has in consideration downwind and upwind performance and the ARC is just a downwind ride.