New York Bight - Wind Energy Areas at Sea

[CaptNemoO2]

Originally Posted by Montanan

If a ship has an allision with a turbine or support structure the ship will likely be primarily at fault and will be liable for damages. That is what marine insurance is for. No big deal if one turbine is taken off line or needs to be replaced every once in a while. The structures and farms are well lighted for ships and for airplanes and will be easily discernable by radar, and I suspect will also be transmitting by AIS, as anchored and not underway or making way. One would have to be a truly drunken sailor to run into such massive structures, albeit mechanical failures could result in going off course. Little boats can do no harm to these strong foundations. They will be very similar to oil and gas platforms which ships and boats rarely have issues with. I suspect many fisherpersons will be placing their lines near the artificial reefs as the marine life will become quite enhanced after the damage to the bottom recovers and attractive biologics grow on the foundations.

I'm not arguing who's at fault because obviously the ship would be at fault. Im just saying it's poor placement so close to where three shipping lanes meet. Having a high concentration of obstructions in a high traffic area, accidents will happen at some point. Yes, there are things that can be done to mitigate collisions, but can't eliminate them. What are the downfalls if there is a collision? Oil in the water washing up on the beach right there? Fire blowing toxic smoke from composites burning on shore? The wind is predominately from the south, so that's where it ends up. Being so close to shore, will it dissipate enough before getting to shore? The last thing Long Island needs is more toxins in our environment.

I'm also not arguing for or against them. Anything that gets us away from the monopoly and the cluster F that is LIPA (LiLCo) would be fantastic. Our elected officials, one that even recently got a bridge renamed after him, sold us up the river, and we have crazy expensive rates because of it. I don't think wind on it's own will lower those rates, because it will be a long time to recoup, if ever, the cost. But if we can put some hurt on LIPA, it would be worth it.

My only concern against them at all would be if they create a restricted area that is closed to boating around the farm. That would basically eliminate the grounds I boat on. Being that NY, and Long Island even more so, is the Land of "NO!", "If it's fun, stop it". Every where you go here, there is a sign that says no this and no that. There's very few places here where you can legally (without a permit or fee) see the sun set over the ocean. You'll get fined if you're in the state park without your stargazing permit. I can easily see politicians putting something in place keeping people out of the area.

[GordMay]

The Hindenburg’s hydrogen gas was likely produced by the electrolytic decomposition of water [electrolysis], into oxygen and hydrogen.
The mystery of the crash was solved in 1997. A study concluded that the explosion was not due to the hydrogen gas, but rather to a weather-related static electric discharge, which ignited the airship’s silver-colored, canvas exterior covering, which had been treated with the key ingredients of solid rocket fuel.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by GordMay

The Hindenburg’s hydrogen gas was likely produced by the electrolytic decomposition of water [electrolysis], into oxygen and hydrogen.
The mystery of the crash was solved in 1997. A study concluded that the explosion was not due to the hydrogen gas, but rather to a weather-related static electric discharge, which ignited the airship’s silver-colored, canvas exterior covering, which had been treated with the key ingredients of solid rocket fuel.

The production by electrolysis would likely not be cost effective as a fuel.
Interesting about the canvas, I had not heard that before.
It brings us right back to the area of the wind farm north and south of Sandy Hook where the Hindenburg met her end. I don't think some sort of static discharge was ever questioned. It could have been between her and the mooring piling as a ground, lightening or a passenger discharging from rubbing on something. I doubt a definitive will ever be known.
The off shore wind farming still sounds better than oil rigs in my opinion.

[Gadagirl]

I want to share about Mike Strizki, a hydrogen guy.

https://hydrogenhouseproject.org/index.html

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/hydrogen-house/

He's been running his property and vehicles off of hydrogen fuel that he produces himself on his property. He's very active in education about hydrogen. Very cool and intersesting.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by CaptNemoO2

I'm not arguing who's at fault because obviously the ship would be at fault. Im just saying it's poor placement so close to where three shipping lanes meet. Having a high concentration of obstructions in a high traffic area, accidents will happen at some point. Yes, there are things that can be done to mitigate collisions, but can't eliminate them. What are the downfalls if there is a collision? Oil in the water washing up on the beach right there? Fire blowing toxic smoke from composites burning on shore? The wind is predominately from the south, so that's where it ends up. Being so close to shore, will it dissipate enough before getting to shore? The last thing Long Island needs is more toxins in our environment.

My only concern against them at all would be if they create a restricted area that is closed to boating around the farm. That would basically eliminate the grounds I boat on. Being that NY, and Long Island even more so, is the Land of "NO!", "If it's fun, stop it". Every where you go here, there is a sign that says no this and no that. There's very few places here where you can legally (without a permit or fee) see the sun set over the ocean. You'll get fined if you're in the state park without your stargazing permit. I can easily see politicians putting something in place keeping people out of the area.

Reference the Bureau of Ocean Energy Management BOEM announcement:
https://www.boem.gov/sites/default/f...as-Summary.pdf

The wind turbine areas are a long, long ways away from shore. There is zero hazard to anyone on shore due to a fire which fires are modest compared to the hazards on land. There is zero potential for the fire to spread to any other structures and thus no need for firefighting.

Small and medium sized boats and ships can easily navigate and fish within a wind energy area. The turbines are spaced far apart because they have to provide for distance to avail renewal of clean air in the downwind wake of an upwind turbine.

The traffic fairways are large and easily traversed by large ships and were specifically designated as to the primary routes of travel to and fro.

Reference data sheet and map below. Most of them will not even be visible from shore. If a large ship hits one it will likely be a glancing blow, sliding along the side. These structures do not have sharp projections sticking out because they routinely have support ships come alongside. This is not anything new, Europe in particular has very large wind farms offshore and loads of experience. It is only new and delayed in the USA because our electricity costs are comparatively low so offshore wind costs had to come down to be cost competitive and because the USA has vast land resources that can be developed. Beside Trump did not like them so nothing happened for four years. The USA is playing catch up with the rest of the world.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Cadence

. . .

The off shore wind farming still sounds better than oil rigs in my opinion.

Yes the wind turbines will never derive a disaster even of a fraction of the harm and cost comparable to say the Deepwater Horizon blow out in the Gulf of Mexico during 2010.

Estimated to be a spill of 4.9 million barrels of oil (210 million US gal; 780,000 m3). As of 2018, cleanup costs, charges and penalties had cost BP more than $65 billion.

And they will not derive greenhouse gas emissions like combustion petroleum or natural gases.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Reference the Bureau of Ocean Energy Management BOEM announcement:
https://www.boem.gov/sites/default/f...as-Summary.pdf

The wind turbine areas are a long, long ways away from shore. There is zero hazard to anyone on shore due to a fire which fires are modest compared to the hazards on land. There is zero potential for the fire to spread to any other structures and thus no need for firefighting.

Small and medium sized boats and ships can easily navigate and fish within a wind energy area. The turbines are spaced far apart because they have to provide for distance to avail renewal of clean air in the downwind wake of an upwind turbine.

The traffic fairways are large and easily traversed by large ships and were specifically designated as to the primary routes of travel to and fro.

Reference data sheet and map below. Most of them will not even be visible from shore. If a large ship hits one it will likely be a glancing blow, sliding along the side. These structures do not have sharp projections sticking out because they routinely have support ships come alongside. This is not anything new, Europe in particular has very large wind farms offshore and loads of experience. It is only new and delayed in the USA because our electricity costs are comparatively low so offshore wind costs had to come down to be cost competitive and because the USA has vast land resources that can be developed. Beside Trump did not like them so nothing happened for four years. The USA is playing catch up with the rest of the world.

The rest of the world is kind of far reaching. Europe I would agree with. You could have left your politics aside.

[Montanan]

Wind capacity by country and as to turbine size.

The machines just keep getting larger and larger and have higher capacity factors. Today they so dwarf the 3 megawatt, direct drive, machine our team developed for China, going on 15 years ago.

[GordMay]

What Really Sparked the Hindenburg Disaster? Opinions still vary on what caused the airship to explode so suddenly.

The theory I referenced in post #47.

“Why and how the "Hindenburg" burnt” ~ By Addison Bain and Ulrich Schmidtchen
“The outbreak of the fire which destroyed the dirigible LZ 129 "Hindenburg" in Lake-hurst 1937 had nothing to do with the hydrogen gas of which great amounts were onboard to provide buoyancy. The reasons were the chemical and electrical propertiesof the paint of the outer shell in connection with the particular meteorological condi-tions prevailing in Lakehurst on the day of the accident.”
➥ https://www.dwv-info.de/wp-content/u...Hindenburg.pdf

In 2005, a team of researchers led by A.J. Dessler, a physicist at Texas A&M, published a detailed study, in which they attempted to determine whether the chemicals in the varnish could possibly account for the fire. Their answer: no way.

“The Hindenburg Hydrogen Fire: Fatal Flaws in the Addison Bain Incendiary-Paint Theory” ~ by A. J. Dessler
“A theory of the Hindenburg fire that has recently gained popular acceptance proposes thatthe paint on the outer surface of the airship caused both the fire and its rapid spread.However, application of physical laws and numerical calculations demonstrate that thetheory contains egregious errors.”
➥ https://spot.colorado.edu/~dziadeck/zf/LZ129fire.pdf

“Myths about the Hindenburg Crash”
This page explores and debunks some of the more common myths about the Hindenburg disaster spread by hydrogen fuel advocates.
➥ https://www.airships.net/hindenburg/disaster/myths/

[DaveKurtz]

What the heck are we doing here, folks?!? Who wants to navigate a wind farm at night? Or in a dense fog? And no one...No One wants to talk about the bird kill that occurs with wind farms. On land-based turbines most, if not all, are fenced off so that no one can view the bird kill population. At sea, the birds conveniently wash away.

[Hoodsail]

Originally Posted by DaveKurtz

What the heck are we doing here, folks?!? Who wants to navigate a wind farm at night? Or in a dense fog? And no one...No One wants to talk about the bird kill that occurs with wind farms. On land-based turbines most, if not all, are fenced off so that no one can view the bird kill population. At sea, the birds conveniently wash away.

Dave, Dave, Dave; I've navigated by the Block Island offshore wind farm at nite....well lit...no big deal....never fog & dont have radar but I do have charts so shouldnt be a biggie...would think on land are fenced off so noone breaks into and climbs to the top to view the world and fall off. Blades turn so slowly, at least the ones in Massachusetts (on the way to the Cape), that the bird would have to be sightless, inebriated, and deaf to be whacked by one! anyway, arent you in Detroit?! thnks Dave

[DaveKurtz]

A little condescending here, aren't we? I'm a retired electrical contractor with an engineering degree. I don't like arguing from authority, but I actually worked on a couple of wind turbines many years ago during their infancy. No longer. Today's turbines are big mothers! As for rotational speed, tip speeds are around 90 meters/sec which equates to a little better than 200 mph. Bird kill on these units is a huge and mostly unaddressed issue, although it is getting a lot of attention out in California where it bumped off a condor or two among thousands of other birds. Now, I'm actually interested in what you have found navigating around offshore turbines near Block Island. What do you physically see as you approach wind farms? Are there lights at water level or only the airplane warning beacons up high? What is allowed as far as approaching the base of one of these things? And what does being in Detroit have to do with anything? I spent last years sailing up the East coast from Ft. Lauderdale to Detroit. I'll be back out there in 2023.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by DaveKurtz

... And no one...No One wants to talk about the bird kill that occurs with wind farms ...

Wind farms are estimated to kill around 250,000 birds each year.

However, 250,000 is nothing compared to the 64 million birds that lose their lives each year from flying into power lines and cell towers.

And this pales, in comparison to, the 215 million birds that die from collisions with our cars, trucks and airplanes.

Even that number doesn’t come close to the 620 million birds that are killed when they crash into the windows and buildings in our communities.

Yet, all of these combined are dwarfed, by the single greatest threat facing birds today. According to the North American Bird Conservation Initiative, the greatest man-caused threat to birds in North America is the domestic house cat. Our pet cats are responsible for the death of approximately 2.6 billion birds each year.

➥ https://archive.stateofthebirds.org/...s-2014-report/
➥ https://abcbirds.org/article/outdoor...ays-new-study/
➥ https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380

[MikeRyan]

Well, I'm all for renewable power, as it is called. But I remember the 'Texas Towers' that were once out there, supporting the ADIZ (Air Defense Identification Zone) back in the 50's and 60's. The military though they would stand forever.

All gone now. The Ocean is a harsh mistress.

Michael
1st Mate aboard s/v Here The Be Dragons

[Hoodsail]

Gord - new there was a reason we have a predilection for dogs!!
Dave - apologies, for being snarky on a Monday....we were sailing north west toward Block Is, dead of nite, no moon, and if memory serves me right there were lites, possibly flashing beacons (I am a pvt pilot) on the tops of each tower. Can't recall if there are lights on the "legs" of each. Can confirm you're note, that they are BIG! Kept well west of them which works out with the entrance to the harbor (gr salt pond) on the north west part of the island.
Detroit comment was based on, I dont sail on lake Heron or Erie so do potential navigational issues affect me? nope, but you clarified that you sail the east cst.
Last, we have all been on merry-go-rounds and can appreciate that the further from the center of rotation the speeds increase markedly. Surface area of the tip, tip speed, bird migration routes, etc, all considerations to be considered in the bird kill calculations..