VAT, EU, British, Non Res.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by davedindubai

Here's something I'm still not sure on regarding residence status.

If I spend more than 183 days in Spain, I am considered resident in Spain and my income is then taxable there. Fair enough.

If I spend more than 183 days in any 365 days in the EU then I am considered resident in the EU?

So what country would lay claim to my income taxes as long as I spend less than 183 days in any one country?

You can't be a resident in the EU, you become resident in a country that is a member state of the EU.
If you dont stay 183 days or more and dont have any other economic activity in a country to become resident in that country then you are not an EU resident.

[kas_1611]

Originally Posted by Anders

You can't be a resident in the EU, you become resident in a country that is a member state of the EU.
If you dont stay 183 days or more and dont have any other economic activity in a country to become resident in that country then you are not an EU resident.

Not 100% certain on this but if you are in country for more than 90 days you have to register with the authorities so become "resident" in that country and will be subject to any taxation of income as a resident.

In the UK for example if you are an expat you are only allowed to be in country for a maximum of 90 days in any tax year or you lose the Not Resident Not Ordinarily Resident status.

You can be resident in a country but not have any economic activity in that country as you might work overseas. For instance I was resident in France for 4 years as that was my permanent address but I worked in Malaysia where I was tax liable. As I spent less than 183 days in France due to travel I was not resident for tax but I was Ordinarily Resident for everything else.

Residency is not as simple as a straight 183 days

[davedindubai]

Originally Posted by Anders

You can't be a resident in the EU, you become resident in a country that is a member state of the EU.
If you dont stay 183 days or more and dont have any other economic activity in a country to become resident in that country then you are not an EU resident.

I agree. But, a TA (18 months) is issued to the vessel only if the owner is non res of the EU.

So after 3 months in Spain, 3 months in France, 3 months in Italy and 3 months in Greece, the owner isn't resident in any one EU member state but is resident in the EU so surely the TA wouldn't be valid?

Am I over complicating this?

[davedindubai]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

In the UK for example if you are an expat you are only allowed to be in country for a maximum of 90 days in any tax year or you lose the Not Resident Not Ordinarily Resident status.

This is not exactly true, the number of days allowed in the UK is dependant on the number of 'ties' you have to the UK. eg: place to live, family.

[boom23]

Originally Posted by davedindubai

Here's something I'm still not sure on regarding residence status.

If I spend more than 183 days in Spain, I am considered resident in Spain and my income is then taxable there. Fair enough.

If I spend more than 183 days in any 365 days in the EU then I am considered resident in the EU?

So what country would lay claim to my income taxes as long as I spend less than 183 days in any one country?

I would love to know that answer!

I am in similar situation... I am citizen and resident of USA but also have EU passport (Greek). I am buying a French boat next year, which will be USA registered under a USA LLC, and do not want to pay the 20% VAT. I will just cruise through and eventually bring the boat to USA.

So, I plan to stay in Europe less than 183 days and to take the boat in a non-EU country within 18 months (to restart the 18 month clock). Considering how messed up it is in EU, it will be interesting!

P.S. If I offended anyone, I love Europe but I can say it is messed up (at least Greece and Italy). I grew up in Greece and I could not wait to leave when I was 19. My wife is from Italy. Every time we visit Europe, we are amazed how anyone can get anything done. Even banks treat you like they are doing you a favor, with your money!

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by davedindubai

This is not exactly true, the number of days allowed in the UK is dependant on the number of 'ties' you have to the UK. eg: place to live, family.

The UK is not Schengen.. also the four countries you mentioned in another post are all Schengen.. 90 days in one is 90 days in the other three..
Best stay based in Gib till Brexit is sorted.. try and organise it so you can grab June, July and August to leave Gib for the islands..
The baby will be less marina reliant allowing anchoring out and theres a few in the Ballearics, across to Sardinia and Corsica before heading back to Gib..
Winter is coming...
Break up the winter maybe in Morroco then the following summer its 5 days to Sicily.. down to Malta then across to Greece.. Turkey when times up.

[davedindubai]

Wow Boatie, you've spun my mind! 90 days? What? Why am I restricted to 90?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by davedindubai

Wow Boatie, you've spun my mind! 90 days? What? Why am I restricted to 90?

Thats after Brexit.. Your good till Spring..

[Telesail]

You should check that the following is actually true as I may have garbled it:

France considers you tax resident if you were there for more time than any other country during the course of the year. Sounds simple until you realize that French Caribbean islands are actually part of France and count towards the total.......

A sailing acquaintance said she was caught out by this because she forgot to allow for St Martin and Guadeloupe in her calculation until it was too late.

[c-reel]

Good to have a forum discussion, but if facing a borderline situation, best is to talk to a lawyer or directly contact custom ahead of time.

There are various myths, especially about the 183days, which is not a standard rule and appears quite specific sometimes as taxes agreement between countries (mostly to avoid double taxations for foreign workers, so originally a positive idea...)

Comment from Telesail is pointing to one of the very critical issue: it depends on how a country will see your situation (while so far my understanding is this French rule applies to countries they have taxes agreement with, and within the E.U - not 100% sure). And if you do countries hoping to avoid this French specifics, somehow you may fall into the constraints of another country.

The other thing (still working on this one) is the specific of some countries like Iceland, Norway, and Switzerland (only Norway really matters to me ;-) and Monaco, the Azores, Madeira, and the Canary Islands. Mixed up being E.U, Europe and Schengen (Schengen doesnt matter on taxes but could help on time spent).
https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/sch...ountries-list/

Like with UK #GoBrexit, staying there for a bit may either help ... or not!

Bottom line, complex problem, not really about leaving the boat (18months, reset after 1 day), or the visa situation, but about the boat taxation.

Will work on this in December and can share outcome, but my understanding so far is it is specific to individual plan and situation.

Originally Posted by Telesail

You should check that the following is actually true as I may have garbled it:

France considers you tax resident if you were there for more time than any other country during the course of the year. Sounds simple until you realize that French Caribbean islands are actually part of France and count towards the total.......

A sailing acquaintance said she was caught out by this because she forgot to allow for St Martin and Guadeloupe in her calculation until it was too late.

[boom23]

Originally Posted by c-reel

Will work on this in December and can share outcome, but my understanding so far is it is specific to individual plan and situation.

I would appreciate if you share what you find out...

I agree that it is complex and a matter for attorneys specializing on this. I will have to deal with this first half of 2019.

[davedindubai]

I'll try to post some of what I am 99% sure on but for full clarification you'll just have to read the EU website as much as I have. I actually think I may have read too much and fried my brain. Also I am typing this from 200m and almost certainly suffering HPNS (high pressure nervous syndrome) but you'll have to google that one yourself.

To qualify for a TA the boat must be registered outside of the EU and the owner must be non resident in the EU.

Here's a link to the EU website with a drop down box for each countries individual tax policies. I particularly like Lithuania who state 183 'consecutive' days instead of total days (not sure we'll be sailing there tho):
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizen...d/index_en.htm

c-reel is right, it's not really about the boat, it's about the owner. I'm not trying to dodge tax (well of course I don't want to pay it) but I don't live in the UK or Europe and I don't plan to in the near future. I just want to visit so why would I want to pay VAT there. We may very well sail to Australia, love it, move ashore and sell the boat so any VAT paid to Europe for an 18 month visit would be money down the drain. Just an example of course.

I can also confirm that Martinique, Guadaloupe and the French side of St Martin are considered French soil for tax purposes but this obviously didn't effect us.

[boom23]

"To qualify for a TA the boat must be registered outside of the EU and the owner must be non resident in the EU."

That is what I know also. Once one becomes an EU resident, his boat's VAT must be paid immediately. This is where the 183 days come in to play. One becomes EU resident if he stays in EU for 183+ days in one calendar year. This clock does not reset if one leaves EU and returns. It is cumulative.

[davedindubai]

Originally Posted by boom23

"To qualify for a TA the boat must be registered outside of the EU and the owner must be non resident in the EU."

That is what I know also. Once one becomes an EU resident, his boat's VAT must be paid immediately. This is where the 183 days come in to play. One becomes EU resident if he stays in EU for 183+ days in one calendar year. This clock does not reset if one leaves EU and returns. It is cumulative.

This is where I'm hoping my job will get me out of trouble. I work offshore in international waters so I'm hoping I can limit my number of days in the EU to under 183.

[boom23]

Originally Posted by davedindubai

This is where I'm hoping my job will get me out of trouble. I work offshore in international waters so I'm hoping I can limit my number of days in the EU to under 183.

In your situation, I wonder what kind of offshore proof an EU country will accept... I’m guessing they normally check passport entry and exit visas.