Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

[Scot McPherson]

a six pack doesn't cover sailing proficiency....you need a master of vessels with the sailing endorsement.


Besides, the captains license isn't cheap to get. There a many hoops to jump through and each costs money. It costs most people $1500 to $2000 to get their operaters license, the master and sailing don't really cost anything extra except for study materials. The Master, Towing and Sailing endorsements quite literally cost me $25 more dollars each beyond the base cost of the Operator's license (six pack)

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Barra

Thanks Polux. This is exactly what Ive been saying - that if you comply with your boats flags requiremements re skippers qualifications then that will nearly always be acceptable. If its not its not because you have broken that countries law but just because you have a jerk of an official interpreting a grey area narrowly.

I guess that you miss the point where on countries where licenses are not needed certifications are needed. That is the case of Ireland and UK where a ICC or at least a RYA costal certificate is needed for their sailors sailing their own boats in Spain (the ones on the Spanish list of needed licences by country), even if they don't need any on their home waters.

That would also be the case for US or other countries that have no mandatory licences.

[Barra]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

RYA is a nonprofit organization, the most respected yachting association in the world. They have a full time legal staff, and their information on legal requirements relating to yachting is authoritative. If you don't want to believe it, then cross check with Noonsite, CA, or any other resource you can find. They all say the same things.





As Polux has said and shown -- Spain and Croatia absolutely require you to have a license, whatever the flag state.

For the actual regulations of other countries, see the summary by the RYA linked in the previous post. If you think the RYA are lying (!), then check any other resource. They all say the same.


I did not say that the ICC is required anywhere. It might be, but I'm not aware of it. What I am aware of is that various states require some kind of qualification from skippers in charge of vessels in their waters, regardless of the flag state. These states are somewhat flexible about WHICH qualification it is, and generally accept qualifications from your home country. What they don't allow is not having any qualification at all. This may not be enforced much in some countries, but that doesn't mean that the law doesn't apply.

Well dockhead those knickers are well and truly wadded now I have to say!

With all your links not once did you provide evidence of a countries legislation that requires a sailing qualification for a foreign flag boats skipper.

Per the RYA you respect so much they state there is a requirement for "evidence of competence" This is the GREY AREA that you say doesnt exist!

For some this is as simple as seeing that you have successfully navigated your boat from one country to another. For others they need a bit of paper. But which bit of paper hmmm??? in most cases the default is whatever your boats flag state requires.

If you actually read my posts instead of seeing red you will probably see that what Ive said basically lines up with the RYA.

Oh and from your earlier post mate -

" For sailing in the Med, you really need an ICC." Dockhead.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Barra

. . . With all your links not once did you provide evidence of a countries legislation that requires a sailing qualification for a foreign flag boats skipper.

Per the RYA you respect so much they state there is a requirement for "evidence of competence" This is the GREY AREA that you say doesnt exist!

If this goes any further, I'm going to have to send you a bill for legal advice. I don't normally do this much work for free.

Sorry, but I did provide the RYA summary of the legislation of about 20 European countries. This is information is provided as specific legal guidance for RYA members, and is authoritative. If you want to learn Greek and dig around in the Greek codes to try to prove that the RYA got it wrong -- knock yourself out.

"Evidence of competence" is not a "gray area". This term has a precise legal meaning -- it means an official piece of paper which is recognized by the state whose waters you want to sail in. Croatia and Spain (and probably others) publish lists of which official pieces of paper they recognize. With other countries you will have to find out for yourself, but there is some evidence that the ICC is accepted in every European country.

Originally Posted by Barra

For some this is as simple as seeing that you have successfully navigated your boat from one country to another. For others they need a bit of paper. But which bit of paper hmmm??? in most cases the default is whatever your boats flag state requires.

Maybe. You have to check, because the coastal state makes its own rules about WHETHER they will demand a qualification from sailors in foreign flagged boats, and WHICH particular qualification they will accept. The fact that it might not be obvious which particular qualification they will accept, does not get you off the hook. It's still up to them to decide whether they are satisfied or not (except only in the case of the ICC in countries which have adopted Article 40). It may even be in the discretion of the official who you are dealing with.

Originally Posted by Barra

If you actually read my posts instead of seeing red you will probably see that what Ive said basically lines up with the RYA.

You have said over and over again, that if your flag state doesn't require a qualification, then the coastal state has no right to require it of you. This is false, and the RYA specifically explain why in pages I have linked. The idea that your boat is some kind of extraterritorial haven, not subject to the laws of the coastal state, is an urban legend which gets sailors into trouble. That's why I take the trouble to respond to posts which perpetuate this myth.

Originally Posted by Barra

Oh and from your earlier post mate -

" For sailing in the Med, you really need an ICC." Dockhead.

Yes, you do need an ICC. That's the easiest and best way to be sure you are compliant. What's surprising about this? The ICC is the only qualification you can be pretty sure will be accepted in every European state. A Yank with ASA or Brit with Yachtmaster might be ok with those, in most places if not all, but you would have to check in every case.

The ICC is a United Nations regulated form of qualification which is easier to understand than something local, for the petty bureaucrats who might otherwise be tempted to give you a hard time. Those states which have adopted Article 40 are actually obligated to accept the ICC. No state is obligated to accept your ASA or Yachtmaster or six pack or whatever, other than your own flag state. If they do, it's a matter of comity.

[Scot McPherson]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The ICC is a United Nations regulated form of qualification which is easier to understand than something local, for the petty bureaucrats who might otherwise be tempted to give you a hard time. Those states which have adopted Article 40 are actually obligated to accept the ICC. No state is obligated to accept your ASA or Yachtmaster or six pack or whatever, other than your own flag state. If they do, it's a matter of comity.

In the case of ASA, Yachtmaster and maybe even six pack, it's not a matter of comity. None of these certificates are legally recognized sailing proficiencies. They are private certifications, except in the case of the six pack which IS indeed a government license, but does not demonstrate proficiency in sailing at all. The six pack license is issued mostly to people who want to take people out on a fishing charter.

The ASA has called all these nations to ask for reciprocity, but it was a private courtesy given and is not guaranteed to be sufficient demonstration of proficiency in ANY country. Same with the Yachtmaster...it may be more recognized, but it's still the same situation as the ASA. It's a private courtesy that _may_ be given.

The six pack? well that may be a greyer area...it IS a government issued license, but doesn't demonstrate sailing proficiency in the least. HOWEVER, there is no requirement to get a Sailing endorsement UNLESS you are sailing vessel that require a Certificate of Inspection. However yet again, if it's a proficiency that needs to be demonstrated to enter that country's waters for anything other than innocent passage, then you may be rejected from entering those waters if the officials do not deem your six pack as providing sufficient proof of competency.

[donradcliffe]

I think the coastal state vs registered state requirements is indeed a grey area. Remember when NZ tried to enforce their standards on foreign boats?? They lost in court.

[surf_sail]

Thanks Dockhead for all the legal info. It's clear that in countries that are signatories to the UN treaty an ICC is legally required and acceptable despite flag of origin. In other countries it's variable on if a license showing competence is required and if an ICC would be acceptable (but likely would).

So if one gets an ICC it's highly unlikely one would get any grief, but one would still not be fully legally compliant in all countries. Further in some countries of origin it's not as easy/inexpensive to get an ICC as it is in the U.K.

Hence I referred to the whole situation as a "mess".

Now let's forget about what the actual rule/law is in any country. But does anyone know the likelihood of being asked for an ICC (or other licenses) in southern Med countries? I don't care if there is only a handful of know incidents of being asked for a license. (after all boats also get hit by lighting from time to time).

I'd like to get a sense of what the risk is per country without a license and if there are any countries that are best avoided without an ICC. Any chance we can steer the conversation towards the "reality on the ground"? I think by now we all have a good understanding what the law says.

Thanks

[Barra]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

If this goes any further, I'm going to have to send you a bill for legal advice. I don't normally do this much work for free.


You have said over and over again, that if your flag state doesn't require a qualification, then the coastal state has no right to require it of you. This is false, and the RYA specifically explain why in pages I have linked. The idea that your boat is some kind of extraterritorial haven, not subject to the laws of the coastal state, is an urban legend which gets sailors into trouble. That's why I take the trouble to respond to posts which perpetuate this myth.

Ok so the legal background makes sense now with the posts. But I would say you should check the facts before blazing away. I did not say the bolded part. Read what i did actually say as its obviously a bit of a red flag issue for you.

One more time - if an official wants evidence of competency (which is very rare as even you admit) then nearly always the requirements of the boats flags state will be sufficient. What is accepted is indeed a grey area. The evidence of this is in the long and not exclusve lists that croatia and spain published that polux dug up.

Thats what i said over and over.

[Barra]

Originally Posted by surf_sail

Thanks Dockhead for all the legal info. It's clear that in countries that are signatories to the UN treaty an ICC is legally required and acceptable despite flag of origin. In other countries it's variable on if a license showing competence is required and if an ICC would be acceptable (but likely would).

So if one gets an ICC it's highly unlikely one would get any grief, but one would still not be fully legally compliant in all countries. Further in some countries of origin it's not as easy/inexpensive to get an ICC as it is in the U.K.

Hence I referred to the whole situation as a "mess".

Now let's forget about what the actual rule/law is in any country. But does anyone know the likelihood of being asked for an ICC (or other licenses) in southern Med countries? I don't care if there is only a handful of know incidents of being asked for a license. (after all boats also get hit by lighting from time to time).

I'd like to get a sense of what the risk is per country without a license and if there are any countries that are best avoided without an ICC. Any chance we can steer the conversation towards the "reality on the ground"? I think by now we all have a good understanding what the law says.

Thanks

Well thats where i was coming from before dockhead and I got all twisted up- the practical reality.

In my experience you have no concerns in spain, france, italy, croatia, montengro, greece or turkey. You will rarely be asked and if you do they have always been reasonable people to deal with. There seems to be an attitude with many that if you have a non euro flag boat you must know what you are doing if you got this far.

As always show some respect and be polite and it all goes well.

I have no ICC and have zero concerns about continuing to cruise the med without one.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by surf_sail

But does anyone know the likelihood of being asked for an ICC (or other licenses) in southern Med countries? I don't care if there is only a handful of know incidents of being asked for a license. (after all boats also get hit by lighting from time to time).

Pretty slim in most places barring the known like Croatia but very difficult to get a handle on, though it changes. Haven't heard of much in Portugal for a while (& I can't remember personally ever being asked for one). Greece sounds like they won't issue a cruising permit to EU boats without some sort of license, at least in some ports. Another grey area is if there's an incident and the port police get involved, then you might be glad of any and every piece of paper.

Yachts detained in Greece by Port Police. Help needed. - Page 2

So your own call, probably won't be a problem. But might be.

[surf_sail]

In my experience you have no concerns in spain, france, italy, croatia, montengro, greece or turkey. You will rarely be asked and if you do they have always been reasonable people to deal with. There seems to be an attitude with many that if you have a non euro flag boat you must know what you are doing if you got this far.






Thanks Barra. I was under the assumption that Croatia would be one of the most likely to ask for qualification. How many port of entries did you experience in croatia?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Scot McPherson

In the case of ASA, Yachtmaster and maybe even six pack, it's not a matter of comity. None of these certificates are legally recognized sailing proficiencies. They are private certifications, except in the case of the six pack which IS indeed a government license, but does not demonstrate proficiency in sailing at all. The six pack license is issued mostly to people who want to take people out on a fishing charter.

The ASA has called all these nations to ask for reciprocity, but it was a private courtesy given and is not guaranteed to be sufficient demonstration of proficiency in ANY country. Same with the Yachtmaster...it may be more recognized, but it's still the same situation as the ASA. It's a private courtesy that _may_ be given.

The six pack? well that may be a greyer area...it IS a government issued license, but doesn't demonstrate sailing proficiency in the least. HOWEVER, there is no requirement to get a Sailing endorsement UNLESS you are sailing vessel that require a Certificate of Inspection. However yet again, if it's a proficiency that needs to be demonstrated to enter that country's waters for anything other than innocent passage, then you may be rejected from entering those waters if the officials do not deem your six pack as providing sufficient proof of competency.

That's very precise, and is a very useful clarification.

I would only comment that a number of countries specifically recognize ASA and Yachtmaster qualifications. You are absolutely right, that they have no obligation whatsoever to do so.

But they have no greater obligation to recognize an official license. They can make whatever rules they want to. If they want to, they can require you to have a law degree

In PRACTICE, however, it's just unreasonable to expect someone on a circumnavigation to carry 18 different qualifications depending on the whims of each coastal state. So most states try to make their rules at least somewhat logical and practical to obey. Don't count North Korea in that category . So they tend to require something internationally recognized, like the ICC, or just require some qualification which you are likely to have based on where you come from. And so that's what the rule is most places.

I think an RYA Yachtmaster is likely to be ok everywhere in Europe. I don't know this for sure, but my impression is that there is nowhere in Europe which does not know and respect the RYA qualifications. There are RYA training centers now in most European countries. I got my ICC in Russia, believe it or not!!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I think the coastal state vs registered state requirements is indeed a grey area. Remember when NZ tried to enforce their standards on foreign boats?? They lost in court.

There are gray areas, but qualifications are not one of them. You can read UNCLOS for yourself to see how it's dealt with.

The default position is the coastal state can do whatever it wants, but subject to any rights of innocent passage or anything else which was guaranteed by international law, now embodied in UNCLOS.

The New Zealand case (I presume you're talking about the Sellers vs Maritime Safety Inspector case from 1998) dealt with legislation about safety equipment which would apply to vessels on the high seas. There is no doubt that the legislation would have been valid, if it had excluded application to vessels on innocent passage etc. where UNCLOS specifically states that only flag state legislation applies.

If anyone wants to really drill into the legal issues in Sellers, here's a good law review article:

http://www.victoria.ac.nz/law/resear.../11-Marten.pdf

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Barra

Well thats where i was coming from before dockhead and I got all twisted up- the practical reality.

In my experience you have no concerns in spain, france, italy, croatia, montengro, greece or turkey. You will rarely be asked and if you do they have always been reasonable people to deal with. There seems to be an attitude with many that if you have a non euro flag boat you must know what you are doing if you got this far.

As always show some respect and be polite and it all goes well.

I have no ICC and have zero concerns about continuing to cruise the med without one.

Well, good luck. Of course, showing respect and being polite are usually more important than what documents you have. We can certainly agree about that.

I have in fact been across the Channel without my passport, knowing that it almost just doesn't happen that you will get asked for it (I didn't mean to -- I realized in the middle of the Channel that I had left it somewhere). In the event, I had no problems at all -- the French as always were welcoming. But was it a good idea to do that? I don't think so. Likewise, although many people get away with sailing around the Med without an ICC, even for years, is it really a good idea, knowing that it violates the rule of several countries? I know actually a few people who have had problems. Nothing unsolvable, but is it worth it? Only you can decide.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by surf_sail

I'd like to get a sense of what the risk is per country without a license and if there are any countries that are best avoided without an ICC. Any chance we can steer the conversation towards the "reality on the ground"? I think by now we all have a good understanding what the law says.

Thanks

It might be productive to spend a few hours on Google doing some research, the chances of anyone involved when a "license" was requested being on one thread on one particular web forum must be small - YBW would be a good starting point, if any details of something happening did happen to make it onto the web then there would be a good starting point.



https://www.google.pt/search?q=site%...obile&ie=UTF-8


Edit- seems to make much more sense to look for what has happened, "no one asked me!" doesn't really help much.