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Old 18-04-2017, 04:57   #121
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

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Like I said, do you feel lucky?

It's forbidden to possess cocaine in the UK, yet no official in the UK has ever checked to see if I have any, or even asked me whether I have any. Therefore, according to this logic -- "I've never been asked for a license, therefore I don't need one" -- it's perfectly legal, right?


I have no dog in this hunt, Dockhead, but your argument IS fallacious. Barra clearly premised his statement on not finding a "black-and-white" answer in the regs, yet no one would argue that cocaine possession in the UK is not black-and-white. It seems to me that those shades of grey are where this argument lies, as do most.
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Old 18-04-2017, 05:24   #122
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

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I have no dog in this hunt, Dockhead, but your argument IS fallacious. Barra clearly premised his statement on not finding a "black-and-white" answer in the regs, yet no one would argue that cocaine possession in the UK is not black-and-white. It seems to me that those shades of grey are where this argument lies, as do most.
There are no shades of gray -- in many European countries, the law requires persons in charge of a recreational vessel to possess qualifications, period. Both RYA and Noonsite refer to these laws, and Polux even cited the specific law in Spain. The fact that Barra can't find them, doesn't mean they don't exist.

My point with the cocaine analogy was that "I've never been asked for one" is not an argument. Just like the fact that I've never been asked for my passport when crossing the Channel to France, is not an argument, that passports are not required. Passports are most definitely required to enter France from the UK, if you are not a European citizen, and some sailing qualification is most definitely required, in many Mediterranean countries. The fact that you might not get checked very often in either case, does not change what the law says.
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Old 18-04-2017, 07:49   #123
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

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I take "giving into this mess" as not succumbing to the jumping through of hoops to get a bit of paper when you are already clearly a competent skipper eg have sailed an ocean to get to said med country. In many instances it seems experienced skippers are being asked to get a rubber stamp from an instructor with far less experience than they have.

By all means if you need the training get it but officials have always been satisfied in other ways in my experience here.
So, "not succumbing to the jumping through of hoops to get a bit of paper when you are already clearly a competent skipper eg have sailed an ocean to get to said med country."

to you means.........

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and the fact that I paid about $325 for the class and the exam,

sounds more like talk the talk than walk the walk...
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Old 18-04-2017, 11:04   #124
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

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I am guessing, but I would bet dollars to doughnuts (as we say), that the Spanish officially accept the ICC for skippers of foreign flag vessels. You don't have to be a party to that treaty, to have your own rule that such a qualification is acceptable, and I bet they have such a rule.

Here is an interesting list of the requirements of different countries, by the RYA:

Acceptance of the ICC | The ICC and Evidence of Competence Abroad | Boating Abroad | Knowledge & Advice | Knowledge & Advice | RYA
Yes and no. No they don't accept ICC and they cannot do that legally. They have to follow what the law of Spain says about the subject....but the authorities kind of close their eyes and let it pass. This means also that if they want to screw someone that is pissing them and has only a ICC, they are entitled to do so in all legality.

Both Spain and Portugal have boat licences for many decades, the licences and the system is very similar as well as the licenses (or certificates) that are needed to sail on both waters.

Basically what both laws say is that for doing what nationals do with their boats (type of navigation, size of the boat, night navigation) foreigners have to have licences that grant or attest the same type of competence.

Recently, on behalf of a fellow American that wants to move to Portugal I had talked with the man that inside the maritime structure is responsible for the equivalences of those Portuguese licences to foreign licences. He does that studding the curriculum of foreign licences and comparing them with the curriculum of the several Portuguese licences.

Regarding US ASA certificates are acceptable but not the more basic ones. Basically in what regards ASA the first that would be acceptable regarding cruising would be ASA 104: "Learn how to sail a sloop-rigged, auxiliary powered 30'-45' sailboat during a multi-day cruise upon inland/coastal waters in moderate/heavy winds and sea conditions. Learn about provisioning, boat systems, auxiliary engines, advanced sail trim, coastal navigation, anchoring / mooring, docking, emergency operations, weather..."

Regarding RYA the first one to be accepted would be "day skipper" (but that would not allow sailing at night) or "Coastal Skipper" to be more on the safe side since most of us sail at night.

But in the end...and for now you are right, I would say that if you don't piss nobody and are nice you can get away with an ICC, not because it is valid but because they let it pass. However I don't know the legal implications that can arise in what regards an accident since even if you can get away with that you are not sailing legally with an ICC on those waters.
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Old 18-04-2017, 11:22   #125
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
There are no shades of gray -- in many European countries, the law requires persons in charge of a recreational vessel to possess qualifications, period. Both RYA and Noonsite refer to these laws, and Polux even cited the specific law in Spain. The fact that Barra can't find them, doesn't mean they don't exist.
.
Dockhead and Sawbonez,

regardless of whether the analog is a good one or not, the point is accurate.

No proof of needing a Certificate/License is NOT proof that you don't need one.
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Old 18-04-2017, 11:31   #126
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I am guessing, but I would bet dollars to doughnuts (as we say), that the Spanish officially accept the ICC for skippers of foreign flag vessels. You don't have to be a party to that treaty, to have your own rule that such a qualification is acceptable, and I bet they have such a rule.

Here is an interesting list of the requirements of different countries, by the RYA:

Acceptance of the ICC | The ICC and Evidence of Competence Abroad | Boating Abroad | Knowledge & Advice | Knowledge & Advice | RYA
Correction, just to be sure I looked at the Spanish law and in fact they have a list of the accepted licences and it includes ICC both for Ireland and UK (as well as Coastal RYA course) but the list is not complete and does not include US even if it includes several American countries. The law says that licences or certifications that are used on other countries will be suitable for using in Spain.

On countries where licences are not needed, like UK or Ireland, they state certifications as valid and say what are the acceptable ones, but not in what regards US. But I would say that if ICC is valid for Ireland and UK it would also be valid to US.
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Old 18-04-2017, 16:59   #127
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

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So, "not succumbing to the jumping through of hoops to get a bit of paper when you are already clearly a competent skipper eg have sailed an ocean to get to said med country."

to you means.........




sounds more like talk the talk than walk the walk...
This was the quote from the american skipper not me. You can apologise for your error if you like - I will accept it
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Old 18-04-2017, 17:04   #128
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

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Correction, just to be sure I looked at the Spanish law and in fact they have a list of the accepted licences and it includes ICC both for Ireland and UK (as well as Coastal RYA course) but the list is not complete and does not include US even if it includes several American countries. The law says that licences or certifications that are used on other countries will be suitable for using in Spain.

On countries where licences are not needed, like UK or Ireland, they state certifications as valid and say what are the acceptable ones, but not in what regards US. But I would say that if ICC is valid for Ireland and UK it would also be valid to US.
Thanks Polux. This is exactly what Ive been saying - that if you comply with your boats flags requiremements re skippers qualifications then that will nearly always be acceptable. If its not its not because you have broken that countries law but just because you have a jerk of an official interpreting a grey area narrowly.
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Old 18-04-2017, 17:18   #129
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
There are no shades of gray -- in many European countries, the law requires persons in charge of a recreational vessel to possess qualifications, period. Both RYA and Noonsite refer to these laws, and Polux even cited the specific law in Spain. The fact that Barra can't find them, doesn't mean they don't exist.

My point with the cocaine analogy was that "I've never been asked for one" is not an argument. Just like the fact that I've never been asked for my passport when crossing the Channel to France, is not an argument, that passports are not required. Passports are most definitely required to enter France from the UK, if you are not a European citizen, and some sailing qualification is most definitely required, in many Mediterranean countries. The fact that you might not get checked very often in either case, does not change what the law says.
Oh boy where to begin. Cocaine analogy seriously?

Anyway you miss what im saying. I have been asked for qualifications on more than a few occasions. BUT the provision of my boats flags requirements has always been acceptable.

Poluxs last post has confirmed in writing what I already know to be the case for Spain having cruised there for 2 years. That my QLD boating licence is an acceptable qualification if very rarely asked for despite it not being on any list. No one embargoed my boat until I got my ICC.

re noonsite it has been stating an ICC (yes specifically an ICC) is a requirement for cruising in Greece for at least 7 years that I know of. Its just not the case though on the ground. Bit like the new cruising tax who knows I dont read greek so cant find any actual written law.

re RYA they earn revenue from the courses so have a dog in the fight.

If you want to say its a requirement to have an ICC to sail in a particular med country when your boats flag does not require it then please show me the actual regulations of that country and I will stand corrected.

So far we have ruled out Spain and Croatia thanks to Polux's work....
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Old 18-04-2017, 17:48   #130
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

The English language is most useful. Having traveled to Greece, Italy, France, Germany, Denmark, Switzerland, Austria, Luxemburg, Lichtenstein, Turkey, and Iceland, found most all people dealing with the public such as hotel desk clerks, restaurant waiters, train conductors, ticket agents, speak English. Also, it's not unusual to have an English-language conversations with random citizens. One major exception was a nunnery in Venice providing overnight accommodations. The nun spoke no English yet communication was successful. Also found traveling in central and south America practical speaking only English.
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Old 18-04-2017, 18:36   #131
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

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The English language is most useful. Having traveled to Greece, Italy, France, Germany, Denmark, Switzerland, Austria, Luxemburg, Lichtenstein, Turkey, and Iceland, found most all people dealing with the public such as hotel desk clerks, restaurant waiters, train conductors, ticket agents, speak English. Also, it's not unusual to have an English-language conversations with random citizens. One major exception was a nunnery in Venice providing overnight accommodations. The nun spoke no English yet communication was successful. Also found traveling in central and south America practical speaking only English.


This is the Shakespeareian use of the term "nunnery"?
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Old 19-04-2017, 02:18   #132
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

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Thanks Polux. This is exactly what Ive been saying - that if you comply with your boats flags requiremements re skippers qualifications then that will nearly always be acceptable. If its not its not because you have broken that countries law but just because you have a jerk of an official interpreting a grey area narrowly.
Polux can comment himself, but that is not indeed what Polux was saying.

Polux was only talking about what KIND of qualification -- that the Spanish will accept American ASA certs for example. NOT indeed that they don't require any qualification, if the flag state doesn't. He even cited the specific law.

If you don't believe me, read Noonsite, RYA, CA site, or any other resource, or consult a local lawyer. There is no controversy about this and no "gray area".

"The requirement for evidence of competence varies from country to country. Sometimes it is required for coastal waters, sometimes for inland waters, sometimes for neither and sometimes for both.

"The law of the sea is frequently misunderstood, with many boaters believing that they can go wherever they wish abiding only by the rules of their Flag State (country of registration).

"[But] when you visit another country, in most circumstances (as detailed in the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea) you can be required to comply with the maritime legislation of the visited country (the Coastal State) in addition to that of your vessel’s Flag State.

"The most common requirement is evidence of competence where this is mandatory for a local boat. Whether this is stipulated in the national legislation, required under local rules or the local port authority making unilateral decisions is often not clear.

". . . Where evidence of competence is required by the country of registration (the Flag State) pleasure boaters must comply with those regulations. Additionally, when in the waters of another country you must also comply with any requirements of the visited country (the Coastal State)."


Evidence of Competence Abroad | The ICC and Evidence of Competence Abroad | Boating Abroad | Knowledge & Advice | Knowledge & Advice | RYA


comp.pdf


Acceptance of the ICC | The ICC and Evidence of Competence Abroad | Boating Abroad | Knowledge & Advice | Knowledge & Advice | RYA
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Old 19-04-2017, 02:32   #133
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

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re RYA they earn revenue from the courses so have a dog in the fight.
RYA is a nonprofit organization, the most respected yachting association in the world. They have a full time legal staff, and their information on legal requirements relating to yachting is authoritative. If you don't want to believe it, then cross check with Noonsite, CA, or any other resource you can find. They all say the same things.



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If you want to say its a requirement to have an ICC to sail in a particular med country when your boats flag does not require it then please show me the actual regulations of that country and I will stand corrected.

So far we have ruled out Spain and Croatia thanks to Polux's work....
As Polux has said and shown -- Spain and Croatia absolutely require you to have a license, whatever the flag state.

For the actual regulations of other countries, see the summary by the RYA linked in the previous post. If you think the RYA are lying (!), then check any other resource. They all say the same.


I did not say that the ICC is required anywhere. It might be, but I'm not aware of it. What I am aware of is that various states require some kind of qualification from skippers in charge of vessels in their waters, regardless of the flag state. These states are somewhat flexible about WHICH qualification it is, and generally accept qualifications from your home country. What they don't allow is not having any qualification at all. This may not be enforced much in some countries, but that doesn't mean that the law doesn't apply.
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Old 19-04-2017, 03:18   #134
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

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RYA is a nonprofit organization, the most respected yachting association in the world. They have a full time legal staff, and their information on legal requirements relating to yachting is authoritative. If you don't want to believe it, then cross check with Noonsite, CA, or any other resource you can find. They all say the same things.





As Polux has said and shown -- Spain and Croatia absolutely require you to have a license, whatever the flag state.

For the actual regulations of other countries, see the summary by the RYA linked in the previous post. If you think the RYA are lying (!), then check any other resource. They all say the same.


I did not say that the ICC is required anywhere. It might be, but I'm not aware of it. What I am aware of is that various states require some kind of qualification from skippers in charge of vessels in their waters, regardless of the flag state. These states are somewhat flexible about WHICH qualification it is, and generally accept qualifications from your home country. What they don't allow is not having any qualification at all. This may not be enforced much in some countries, but that doesn't mean that the law doesn't apply.
Compared to what I wrote about in a previous post, I ask the Norwegian Maritime Administration and get the message that they are not in the same way as Denmark and Sweden is checking for certificates in both angel flag because they are aware of the rules of UK and that insurance companies do not give permission to sail without a guarantee that the necessary knowledge.

The fact that Scandinavia not check does not change that other countries do not have the same rules, but requires.

So the fact is of course that if you want to sail in the Mediterranean, it is foolish not to take it real small certificate. a certificate that does not nugt in Scandinavia.

So I will sail happily in Norway, Greenland and Iceland, but I will also take Yachtmaster coastall, to avoid any problems in other countries.

But it seems a little like a "I'll be right" situation by not only respecting the rules.

If I refer to maritime rules and says moter gives way to sail, and I saw pushing me in front of a large ship, it is foolish and I understand if the captain make an assessment of what it costs the small boat loser same as a diskussin with authorities
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Old 19-04-2017, 05:55   #135
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Re: Licenses for Americans sailing in Europe

Before signing up for a bunch of overpriced BS ASA courses why not just get a 6pack and be done?
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