ICC in Greece - Laws vs Reality

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by yeloya

I visited almost all of the Dodocanese islands and never, ever I was asked for ICC. In Turkey, the general rule is that you should have a documents enforced (if at all ) by yr country of origin. Logically it should be the same everywhere. If I am allowed to sail offshore in Turkey, why I shouldn't be in Greece or elsewhere.
All this is valid for cruising on yr own boat. If you want to be a skipper on a commercial boat (regardless the size) that's a whole different issue..

Moreover, in Greece (like pretty much in Turkey) the legislation is vague and every official act according to his mood. I happened to be caught once without properly completing the entry formalities in Simi. They took me to the police station, they were very kind, we had couple of phone calls and the issue was solved.(no bribes..)
But I know in the same spot one charter boat has been confiscated and kept for weeks simply because the ship papers were not originals.

Cheers

Yeloya

This is a problem in Greece... I was over 3 hrs explaining/convincing them that as a delivery skipper I only ask for and carry copies of the boats papers... and that owners are reluctant to hand over all the originals AND their boat... along with 50% of the fee...
He just could not see it... but then if he was entrusting a few grands worth of boat and original papers to a relative stranger he may view things differently...
Something about uniforms... they seem to narrow the box and dump reasoning

[yeloya]

Along with Greece many countries requires the originals of documents and for the the reasons you mentioned we don't give them for our charter boats. After what happened to one of or competitor, we are now giving if they declare that they want to visit Greece.
On the other hand, if you fall on wrong people, there isn't much you can do about. Keep on smiling if you can. If one travel often in this area, getting some friends helps a lot..
Cheers

Yeloya

[simonmd]

So, what would happen if you chartered a boat out or gave it to a delivery skipper with the original papers and they dissapeared with the boat? Would the insurance pay out if they found out you'd given them the original docs?

[boatman61]

Simon... its hard to disappear with a boat these days.... to easy to track... sooner or later they all turn up somewhere...
Now 40yrs ago...

[yeloya]

Simon, as boatman said, disappearing with the boat is not easy.. After all, you don't own the boat with original papers when the boat is registered on somebody else..Our biggest fear is the people/organisations that smuggle people from Turkey to Greece. If they are caught the boat confiscated, it may take years to get her back and even if you do, the boat that carried 40-50 people on board is a wreck anyway. Even worse, if they don't get caught, when the operation is over they leave the boat to sink..
Yeloya

[swagman]

Originally Posted by Jacques2

Hi !
I agree with Yeloya...
It looks like owners who have their SAILboat in Turkey or Greece and have been sailing there for years have the same experience : ICC is not required...
But no matter..., congratulations to those who have one

Yawn.

We cruised Turkey for two years, and were asked for 'proof of qualifications' when trying to clear out from Datcha. I know it was not legally required, but it did not stop the Harbour Master demanding the number to fill a box on his form.

His position was quite clearly put. No qualification, no exit documentation. We argued. He responded that if we'd cleared out before from Iskandrun or Kemer or Fineke then we should go back to one of those ports and clear out again this time also..........

Oh, he might rethink if we paid a 150 euro fine!

As I've said before, we sailed on to Bodrum and cleared from there no worries. But our experience in Dacha shows when getting an ICC or something similar is easy - then bugger the legality / nationality / whatever - it is worth getting something in case you find yourself in the same situation.

JOHN

[simonmd]

Wise words. Considering how easy and cheap they are, I can't understand why people are even debating it. Lets face it, if your not capable of getting one, you have no business being at the wheel anyway. I already have an ICC for sail as well as power and I don't even own a sailboat yet!

It's like most legal and bureaucratic stuff, 99.9% of the time you won't need it. But on that 0.1% occasion, boy you'll be glad you've got it!

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by simonmd

Wise words. Considering how easy and cheap they are, I can't understand why people are even debating it. Lets face it, if your not capable of getting one, you have no business being at the wheel anyway. I already have an ICC for sail as well as power and I don't even own a sailboat yet!

It's not about capabilities...

I live in Sweden, Sweden does not issue the ICC.
I am from Australia and whilst the Australian qualifications are based on the RYA, Sail Australia does not issue the ICC.
The RYA can only issue the ICC to UK citizens or bona fide UK residents, of which I am neither.

Whilst I could go to the RYA and give some BS about living in the UK using my friends address, but why should I have to? I am an EU citizen (Swedish as well), I have a Swedish registered yacht, I already meet the legal requirements to sail my yacht in Sweden so there should be no reason for me to illegally obtain a certification so I can sail within EU waters.

[swagman]

Hoppy, I am obviously not making it clear.

You do not have to. You could stick with the legalities and wait until the situation arose and argue then.

I know how you feel, I felt the same way until we bumped into that difficult offical. My argument over the legalities simply did not matter to the Datcha chappie.

IMHO most of us will one day find another just like him - and all I am saying is when you do, some form of paper certification would be useful.

You may be lucky and it never occurs, if so well done and good luck. If it does, remember this debate.

Cheers

JOHN

[yeloya]

Swagman,

I am sorry to hear what has happened to you in Datça. As I said earier, the legislation is not very clear in Turkey and every official can imply his own interpretation. The rule of thumb is every sailor has to present the documents which are imposed by their own legislation, nothing more. The insurance companies are following the same rule. In France for instance there is no document issued if you are on yr own boat. If their government let them go out without any licence and they could come up until Turkish waters why Turkey should question their level of competency or require a paper which is not issued by their country of origin ?
On the other hand, if some country ask for ICC , the others for RYA, how can one sail around the world ? Are we going to get all kind of the licences available for doing so safely ?

Cheers

Yeloya

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by yeloya

Swagman,

I am sorry to hear what has happened to you in Datça. As I said earier, the legislation is not very clear in Turkey and every official can imply his own interpretation. The rule of thumb is every sailor has to present the documents which are imposed by their own legislation, nothing more. The insurance companies are following the same rule. In France for instance there is no document issued if you are on yr own boat. If their government let them go out without any licence and they could come up until Turkish waters why Turkey should question their level of competency or require a paper which is not issued by their country of origin ?
On the other hand, if some country ask for ICC , the others for RYA, how can one sail around the world ? Are we going to get all kind of the licences available for doing so safely ?

Cheers

Yeloya

The answer is that it's becoming increasing difficult to sail around the world ( or travel overland for that matter)

Dave

[simonmd]

Originally Posted by hoppy

It's not about capabilities...

I live in Sweden, Sweden does not issue the ICC.
I am from Australia and whilst the Australian qualifications are based on the RYA, Sail Australia does not issue the ICC.
The RYA can only issue the ICC to UK citizens or bona fide UK residents, of which I am neither.

Whilst I could go to the RYA and give some BS about living in the UK using my friends address, but why should I have to? I am an EU citizen (Swedish as well), I have a Swedish registered yacht, I already meet the legal requirements to sail my yacht in Sweden so there should be no reason for me to illegally obtain a certification so I can sail within EU waters.

I appreciate that and my reply was not directed at you. I was talking about the people who CAN get an ICC but for one reason or another do not. I'm sure that whatever the equivilent is in Sweden would be acceptable and the Turkish authorities mean 'must have an ICC or equivelent'.

[beneteau-500]

well i will add this to the mix of things I have never had or gained any Qualifications what so ever the only thing i did was learn to sail a dingy at the age of 6 i have been sailing the med/Greece for past 18 yrs and have never been asked to show my icc or any other sailing qualifications and i am a aussie for my sins and my yacht is uk flagged the only thing i get asked for is insurance, transit log and boat papers which are not the original either due to ministry of shipping losing my originals but have had copies stamped by Greek courts to confirm these are copies of the originals and have never been asked in turkey to show any form of qualifications either only insurance docs

[yeloya]

Well, my take away from this thread is:

-if you take a reasonable level of risk, you may sail away w/out any licence.
-İf you want to further limit the risks, you'd better have at least some kind of licence.
-if you want to totally avoid any risk, you get all kind of licences available on the earth

And yet I'm not sure if one can get away with every kind of documents, if you fall on one stupid officier somewhere in Greece or Datça !!!

I would personally stick to second option (also to comply with the requirements of the insurance company) and not too much worry for the rest. After all, when you are sailing, there are many other things to worry about.

Cheers and HAPPY NEW YEAR:::

Yeloya

[hoppy]

Just left the coastguard office in pithagorin. Getting a new traffic document for my boats new name and flag was quite painless although confusion was caused by the old traffic document having the 11.75 hull length whilst the new Swedish reg had the 12.20 loa.

No skipper qualifications were asked for.