Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021 & onwards

[Sojourner]

I think Sweden is going to explode as it is already trending in that direction due to their lax attitude. I also think that once the peak happens, there will still be hundreds or thousands of cases daily for a long long time, just not on an upward trend...look at italy today. A few days of downward infection rates, which is hopeful, but you can see there will be thousands of cases daily (and then hundreds) for the foreseeable future. Even if it's a downward trend. Every marina or port you stop in will be exposed to dozens of cases daily at best, if they are open. You might be able to relax under those conditions, but I sure as shooting could not

Not just that, local people in any city will be suffering: supply chain shortages of food and staples, serious lack of money from being out of work, losing many friends or loved ones. Outsiders vacationing from even from the next town over (let alone the next country) using facilities and supplies to recreate might not be sensitive or welcome. Here in Greece, there is anger growing at foreigners already, and there are very very few cases yet. In South italy, people are basically looting grocery stores in places, because again, no money, no jobs.

I really do not see a viable sailing season this year at all, anywhere.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Sojourner

I think Sweden is going to explode as it is already trending in that direction due to their lax attitude.

It's exploding in the countries on lockdown also...at least Sweden isn't doubling down by destroying their economy.

[Mr.Feeney]

I live in Sweden, Stockholm, and so far we are doing fine. Sure, it might explode (like in other countries) but so far the goverments measures are working fine. Our rate of increased infections are actually not higher than other countries here with much harsher "lockdown".

However, be advised that our healthcare is going to be broken in the summer so you cant expect any help if you get sick. but i guess that is the same whereever you are in the world.

Our plan is to cruise the stockholm artipelago this summer. lots of nice secluded anchorages and easy to stay away from marinas. "St. annas skärgård" is a beutiful artipelgo a few miles south of stockholm that is just amazing also (very tricky navigation with loads of stones etc. hiding under water but charts are good).

I think that Gotland and Öland is best to avoid, it gets quite crowded there and I would not like to get sick there.

Anyway, keep a look at this site (https://experience.arcgis.com/experi...6f9f87457ed9aa) where our goverments gives up to date figures of how many are sick.only in swedish i belive but i think the figures speak for themself

best of luck

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Sojourner

I think Sweden is going to explode as it is already trending in that direction due to their lax attitude. I also think that once the peak happens, there will still be hundreds or thousands of cases daily for a long long time, just not on an upward trend...look at italy today. A few days of downward infection rates, which is hopeful, but you can see there will be thousands of cases daily (and then hundreds) for the foreseeable future. Even if it's a downward trend. Every marina or port you stop in will be exposed to dozens of cases daily at best, if they are open. You might be able to relax under those conditions, but I sure as shooting could not

Not just that, local people in any city will be suffering: supply chain shortages of food and staples, serious lack of money from being out of work, losing many friends or loved ones. Outsiders vacationing from even from the next town over (let alone the next country) using facilities and supplies to recreate might not be sensitive or welcome. Here in Greece, there is anger growing at foreigners already, and there are very very few cases yet. In South italy, people are basically looting grocery stores in places, because again, no money, no jobs.

I really do not see a viable sailing season this year at all, anywhere.

Well let's hope this gloomy assessment does not prove correct.


I don't think we will see supply chain issues in Scandinavian cities. Scandinavia is not Southern Italy. People out of work are supported by the state, and the shops are full of everything (even toilet paper). People are passionate about sailing up here and the sport has zero class connotation -- unlike Italy. In Finland in particular practically everyone who lives near the coast sails. So no one resents cruisers like in Greece and Italy (I'm surprised though to hear that Greeks are being resentful -- I would think they would be glad for people to be visiting and spending money).


So let's see. I guess if it will be possible to cruise this summer anywhere, this should be the place -- I hope so. The locals here in this port in Denmark seem hopeful -- they've launched all their boats over the last weekend.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mr.Feeney

I live in Sweden, Stockholm, and so far we are doing fine. Sure, it might explode (like in other countries) but so far the goverments measures are working fine. Our rate of increased infections are actually not higher than other countries here with much harsher "lockdown".

However, be advised that our healthcare is going to be broken in the summer so you cant expect any help if you get sick. but i guess that is the same whereever you are in the world.

Our plan is to cruise the stockholm artipelago this summer. lots of nice secluded anchorages and easy to stay away from marinas. "St. annas skärgård" is a beutiful artipelgo a few miles south of stockholm that is just amazing also (very tricky navigation with loads of stones etc. hiding under water but charts are good).

I think that Gotland and Öland is best to avoid, it gets quite crowded there and I would not like to get sick there.

Anyway, keep a look at this site (https://experience.arcgis.com/experi...6f9f87457ed9aa) where our goverments gives up to date figures of how many are sick.only in swedish i belive but i think the figures speak for themself

best of luck

Thanks for the report! Might see you out there. What are people saying -- are the gasthamnar expected to be open? There are so many great anchorages (uncountably many) that you don't need them often, but it's good to be able to come in and get water once in a while and put a good full charge in the batteries.


For those who haven't cruised these regions -- the archipelagos of Sweden and Finland are so vast, that you rarely share an anchorage with even one other boat. So there are no crowds, and I think cruising there should be a quite good place -- quite a socially isolating place -- to be during an epidemic.


As to health care -- we've already seen the triage in Italy. If during the peak of the epidemic you get sick and need a respirator and you're over 60 -- well kiss your ass goodbye. But I agree that this is going to be true just about everywhere, so why not die with your sea boots on? I'm quite OK with this myself, although since I have already had COVID-19 I doubt if I will get it again.

[Dockhead]

Nordic countries are relatively well prepared compared to other countries. Finland, for example, has strategic reserves of health care supplies including face masks:



https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/finland...n-finland.html

[alluringarctic]

I'm from Finland and am currently sailing/living aboard in Norway.

In Finland some are considering skipping the whole boating season (leaving their boats on the hard), but at this point it's all just speculation. Why not wait 1-2 months to see where things are going?

In any case, I think some of the assumptions mentioned in this thread are wrong...

Boating itself is currently not illegal for example in Finland, but the restrictions are strict with Uusimaa closed off (also for boat traffic), and all around the country rescue services strongly recommending to avoid recreational boating, small communities in the archipelago asking people not to come there etc. And of course the country border is currently closed for tourists.

Even if your boat has huge tanks, at some point you're going to need supplies. Where are you going to get them? That is the problem currently in Norway - boating is not illegal here either, but it's rather impossible to move along the coast because the locals don't want to see a new (foreign flagged) boat appearing in one of their harbors, doesn't matter whether you're moving within the country or not.

In any case, things are likely to change... so for now it's just best to wait.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

People are passionate about sailing up here and the sport has zero class connotation -- unlike Italy. In Finland in particular practically everyone who lives near the coast sails.

This is not true by the way, I've been active in the local Finnish sailing clubs and also worked (coaching + club management) in couple different ones. Yes, sailing might be more accessible in Finland compared to many other countries, but to say that it has "zero class connotation" is completely wrong. It is still an expensive hobby in many respects and a lot of people think that sailing is only for the "better" people etc.

[CatNewBee]

I think, we will have a great sailing season, less crowded anchorages and marinas, and welcomming local businesses. I am optimistic to be able to cross the Atlantic next winter.

Whatever happens, it will peak during the next few weeks.

After that all this isolation methods will not have any effect any more. It is a shame, China has not informed and taken measures earlier. And they stil downplay the problem and claim they solved it, Wuhan has no new case and other fake news, this makes it worse and potentially more dangerous.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by alluringarctic

I'm from Finland and am currently sailing/living aboard in Norway.
...
snip
...
This is not true by the way, I've been active in the local Finnish sailing clubs and also worked (coaching + club management) in couple different ones. Yes, sailing might be more accessible in Finland compared to many other countries, but to say that it has "zero class connotation" is completely wrong. It is still an expensive hobby in many respects and a lot of people think that sailing is only for the "better" people etc.

Not seeing why you need to stop in any other port in Norway. You can get fresh water from any creek along the coast and get fish from the sea in five minutes more than you can eat in week. That, salt and potatoes you are good to go for months.

Maybe in sailing clubs, dunno anyone being in one. The sailors I know are common folk thou you can't know for sure as most are similarly casual regardless of their number..

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Huskybeer

To Dockhead. We have a British VAT paid boat laying in Spain at the moment. Does that mean I cannot visit Britain and come back to Europe in fear of losing VAT status? You got me confused.
What if the boat registration procedure in Holland started before brexit but was finished after brexit?
Tx so much

While the UK has Brexited the EU, it presently remains in a transition period until the end of this year. During the transition period it is my understanding that the EU's VAT rules and status remains as it was. The final rules for UK / EU relations has yet to be negotiated so it is anyone's guess what happens at the end of the transition period.

The boat [like any other tangible object] customs and VAT status will likely depend on its situs at a specific date in time upon the end of the transition. If the "thing" is located in the EU it likely will retain EU customs and VAT status; if it is located elsewhere then it would likely derive status as to the jurisdiction it was located. Moving across a customs and joint tax jurisdictions implies importation / exportation and all that consequences thereof, nothing unique about a boat with regards to importation or temporary importation. It is merely another taxable good, it and it accessories / tender, etc.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

I was supposed to set sail yesterday from St Maarten to Horta, but here I'm working in Norway..
It was a bit sudden close-down all over thou I saw it coming friday two weeks ago but managed not to get confirmation of a couple of more sailors to crew this Swan 65 in question ahead of schedule nor from the owner.

Currently you will not be able to land in Horta.
You can take on fuel and water then return to anchor.
For any resupply of food etc you need to contact Peters Sports Bar who will collect your supplies and deliver them to your boat in their launch..
My understanding of the current situation on Faial.

[Montanan]

If it is legal to continue outdoor recreational activities in your jurisdiction, such as hiking, strolling in the park, or boating, just be sure to utilize proper self isolation, which means keeping distance from anyone other than those with which you are cohabitating with. So this means that for boating, the only persons that should be on a boat are those that live together on shore, or if you are a liveaboard boater / long term cruiser then your shipmates.

Do not allow interaction between people you do not cohabitate with because you should consider yourself to be the infected one, the contagious one and that you are a vector of the disease and can cause infection, illness or death to each and everyone you come near. Think and act a if you are Typhoid Mary. Recognize your participation in the social contract of protecting others.

So yes, from an pandemic mitigation standpoint, and if permitted by law, you can sail single handed, to and fro, your marina, or with the family or partners you reside together with on land, but not with anyone else. There be no sailing schools, sailing teams or clubs intermingling at port or on board vessels. No drinks, socializing, dinners shared between friends or family that do not reside together. No interaction with marina staff, fueling dock hands, etc.

[td0tz]

Originally Posted by Montanan

...
Do not allow interaction between people you do not cohabitate with because you should consider yourself to be the infected one, the contagious one and that you are a vector of the disease and can cause infection, illness or death to each and everyone you come near. Think and act a if you are Typhoid Mary. Recognize your participation in the social contract of protecting others.

This is the key, and what really matters. We simply lack sufficient data for this specific virus (i.e. reports some people are re-infected?) to take anything else for granted. Act as if you are the problem, the "Typhoid Mary".

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by alluringarctic

I'm from Finland and am currently sailing/living aboard in Norway.

In Finland some are considering skipping the whole boating season (leaving their boats on the hard), but at this point it's all just speculation. Why not wait 1-2 months to see where things are going?

In any case, I think some of the assumptions mentioned in this thread are wrong...

Boating itself is currently not illegal for example in Finland, but the restrictions are strict with Uusimaa closed off (also for boat traffic), and all around the country rescue services strongly recommending to avoid recreational boating, small communities in the archipelago asking people not to come there etc. And of course the country border is currently closed for tourists.

Even if your boat has huge tanks, at some point you're going to need supplies. Where are you going to get them? That is the problem currently in Norway - boating is not illegal here either, but it's rather impossible to move along the coast because the locals don't want to see a new (foreign flagged) boat appearing in one of their harbors, doesn't matter whether you're moving within the country or not.

In any case, things are likely to change... so for now it's just best to wait.

Yes, i do realize that very much is still unknown and we will have to see. I can't sail to Finland now with the borders closed, and with Uusimaa closed off (crazy!) you wouldn't be able to go anywhere anyway. I will bring the boat to Finland only if these restrictions are removed. But I think the attitudes are realistic and healthy and I do think there is some reason to hope that the restrictions will be lifted by summer. Certainly my friends in Finland have this hope, as all of them are launching their boats and fitting out for the season.



I guess in the worst case I could be cruising Sweden this summer -- also not the worst fate in the world.


We shall see.

Originally Posted by alluringarctic

This is not true by the way, I've been active in the local Finnish sailing clubs and also worked (coaching + club management) in couple different ones. Yes, sailing might be more accessible in Finland compared to many other countries, but to say that it has "zero class connotation" is completely wrong. It is still an expensive hobby in many respects and a lot of people think that sailing is only for the "better" people etc.

It's all relative, but I must say, you Finns have simply no idea how lucky you are. You don't actually have anything like "class" anywhere in your society, in the sense we use the word in the English speaking countries. Indeed my very yacht club in Helsinki was founded -- in the 1890's! -- as the "Helsinki Workers' Sailing Club!" You guys just don't have any idea! It's one of things which makes sailing extra pleasant in the Nordic countries -- no one looks at you with euro signs in their eyes like they do in Southern Europe. Sailing is a friendly, cheap and democratic sport which is really accessible to everyone -- Finland has the highest number of sailboats per capita of any country in the world. This is totally different from what it is like in other countries. €10 marina fees in many places, in a country where almost no one earns less than €20 per hour and the average salary is €3540 per month, about triple the average salary in Greece. Whereas the marina fees in many places in Italy cost more for a long weekend, than the marina workers earn in a month. It's a totally different universe.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Currently you will not be able to land in Horta.
You can take on fuel and water then return to anchor.
For any resupply of food etc you need to contact Peters Sports Bar who will collect your supplies and deliver them to your boat in their launch..
My understanding of the current situation on Faial.

I know, if we had made it to St Maarten it would've been a non-stop to Finland instead.