On my fourth Alternator?

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

ABYC will happily sell you the TE -13 standards service for coin of the realm as will ISO

Yes I'm aware of ABYC TE-13. But last I heard it has not yet been issued. So until it is issued I believe my statement is correct that ABYC has NO guidelines for Lithium battery installations. So all of us until then have officially been naughty.

But if It has been issued now? I am not correct.

And yes I agree that ISO now and ABYC will require advance error indication, which is why I mentioned it. I know I need to sort this out. As do, I would hazard to say most Lithium installs I have seen. How have you complied this? Kilovault and Lithionics I am aware have this. I'm sure there are others but I am not aware.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Q Xopa

Yes I'm aware of ABYC TE-13. But last I heard it has not yet been issued. So until it is issued I believe my statement is correct that ABYC has NO guidelines for Lithium battery installations. So all of us until then have officially been naughty.

But if It has been issued now? I am not correct.

And yes I agree that ISO now and ABYC will require advance error indication, which is why I mentioned it. I know I need to sort this out. As do, I would hazard to say most Lithium installs I have seen. How have you complied this? Kilovault and Lithionics I am aware have this. I'm sure there are others but I am not aware.

I thought TE-13 is now released. It’s available as a paid for standard on the ABYC shop

Given it’s a voluntary compliance standard , whether it’s issued formally or not isn’t that relevant.

[sailorboy1]

inexpensive golf cart batteries are sure sounding like the next great thing

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Te-13 and ISO/TS 23625:2021 are available for money from the respective organisation, if you are planing to spend the type of money on a Li install , those standards are cheap and a good investment

Both iso and ABYC require advance error alerting that battery disconnect will occur. This requires an interconnected BMS.

Drop in batteries without networkable bms systems are unlikely to meet either the ABYC or ISO specs

By the way this months Yachting Monthly had an article about Lithiums and quotes from various well known marine insurers.

It does not require a BMS to do the alerting. You can simply program a cell monitor to do this and add an individual cell monitor to each battery instead of interconnecting into an integrated system.

The problem is with all the stupid so called drop-in systems that only have the battery terminals and no access to cell data.

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

It does not require a BMS to do the alerting. You can simply program a cell monitor to do this and add an individual cell monitor to each battery instead of interconnecting into an integrated system.



The problem is with all the stupid so called drop-in systems that only have the battery terminals and no access to cell data.

Yes drop ins make it difficult.

I suspect when demand gets up a head of steam the Drop in guys will come up with a solution so they dont get left behind.

But I like it. That sounds like a great solution.

Which Cell monitors are you using?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Q Xopa

Yes drop ins make it difficult.

I suspect when demand gets up a head of steam the Drop in guys will come up with a solution so they dont get left behind.

But I like it. That sounds like a great solution.

Which Cell monitors are you using?

I have a bunch and they all work but some look better for a little more $.

https://www.amazon.com/Tenergy-Batte...dDbGljaz10cnVl
(But mine is blue… )

https://www.amazon.com/ISDT-Battery-...s%2C113&sr=8-3

Edit: I don’t remember if these have programmable alarm settings. I have long since switched to my own design with Arduino so can program anything. If you have some programming experience, I recommend that.

[dlj]

Wow, 5 pages of essentially arguing about a subject that doesn't really answer the OP's question...

When you go to lithium based battery systems you need to control your alternator outputs so that they do not go to maximum output, which if their output is not controlled, they will do. At max output they will overheat in a fairly short time. Those batteries will look very close to a short circuit to your standard alternators sending them into as high an output as they can deliver. You'll never have an alternator live long under those conditions. The typical recommendation would be to go to external regulation with the Wakespeed 500 or a Balmar (don't recall models) and control your alternator output. Typically you want to limit the output to about 80% of the alternators rated output. But really, you should consult with a knowledgeable marine electrician familiar with these kinds of installations. They are not as simple as drop the batteries in and forget about them... Correctly installed this is a fantastic system that can't be matched with lead acid technology. Incorrectly installed and you will have many nightmares.

dj

[CharlieJ]

@s/v Jedi #64:

The problem is with all the stupid so called drop-in systems that only have the battery terminals and no access to cell data.

Finally; we are in complete agreement about a subject!

@Q_Xopa #61: The revised ABYC Standards are issued each July. E-13 is now issued with an implementation date of July 2023. This is normal to give manufacturers and boatbuilders time to implement changes.

[CharlieJ]

X_opa #11:

As it seems you have found being a ABYC Sparky is not a guarantee they know or understand everything about these, or know the best solutions.

Your disparaging characterization of an ABYC Certified electrician indicates that you did not read the OP for content. The bolded section below from the OP shows that the "ABYC Sparky" is spot on with his assessment and recommendation regarding the failing alternators.

From the OP:

I should mention that after the second diode failed I called a marine sparkie ABYC who installed an argus FET and Balmar alternator protector but he says only external regulator can prevent alternator from getting too hot?

[dlj]

Originally Posted by B.Babs

Why is LiFePO4 so complicate? I was told drop them in and use(by the manufacturer.....?

Not uncommon, and wrong.

Originally Posted by B.Babs

I should mention that after the second diode failed I called a marine sparkie ABYC who installed an argus FET and Balmar alternator protector but he says only external regulator can prevent alternator from getting too hot?

I agree with that assessment.

Originally Posted by B.Babs

Alternators have all been stock Yanmar 80A from Mack Booring..Batteries are groupe 31 Battleborn...I have now spent more on alternators than I did on batteries. I ran AGM for last 17 years with no issues other than only lasting 2-3 years.?

If your AGM's only lasted 2 to 3 years, you were not running them correctly. It is more typical to get 6 to 8 years on a sailboat. Stationary applications can run 12 to 18 years but you need to know a lot about batteries to achieve this.

Why are you not listening to your marine electrician? Or are you simply fact checking here? If the later is the case - as I said above - I'm in agreement. You need to go to external regulation and there is more you need to do.

dj

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

@s/v Jedi #64:

Finally; we are in complete agreement about a subject!

That said… we have no access to individual cells of lead acid batteries either. We don’t put BMS’s on them, but overcharging these is even worse than lfp because they are more prone to thermal runaway and they can explode.

What I mean is: when someone uses lfp cells diy in series without a BMS… it is safer than lead acid and I believe it is conform ABYC/ISO because there is no “impending disconnect “

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

X_opa #11:


Your disparaging characterization of an ABYC Certified electrician indicates that you did not read the OP for content. The bolded section below from the OP shows that the "ABYC Sparky" is spot on with his assessment and recommendation regarding the failing alternators.

From the OP:

Yes, you are correct, I was wrong. My apologies.

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

@s/v Jedi #64:


Finally; we are in complete agreement about a subject!

@Q_Xopa #61: The revised ABYC Standards are issued each July. E-13 is now issued with an implementation date of July 2023. This is normal to give manufacturers and boatbuilders time to implement changes.

Thanks for the information.

[SailDutchman]

Your standard small alternator is fine for a standard lead battery. The problem is that Lithion (LiFePo4) is nothing like lead when charging is concerned. But you experienced that the hard way. Your alternator cannot sustain the heat buildup for prolonged time. Charging lead the voltage rises quicker and the Amps the Alternator can deliver into the battery drops relative soon. Causing the alternator to have to sustain only a lighter load. As Lithium will take all amps available without rising voltage til it's nearly full you are going to burnup any small case alternator if we do noting about it. The best way to adapt a standard smallcase alternator is by using an external Regulator to limit the power to the fieldwindings of the alternator. A Balmar MC-614 is exactly made to do this. I'm using one with our std Alternator and have had no problems since. We limited the fieldwindings to about 70% and can charge at any RPM without the holy smoke escaping

[skenn_ie]

You need an external regulatyor tailored for LiPo. Lithium has very low internal impedance, so will absorb whatever the alternator throws at it, overloading the alternator. For mixed batteries, I would directly charge the Lithium, then use a battery-to-battery charger for the Lead-Acid ones.