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Old 05-08-2022, 15:46   #46
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Re: On my fourth Alternator?

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Originally Posted by B.Babs View Post
I installed drop-in lifepo4 and the first failure they told me was bad diode? paid for that repair and it happen again two weeks later. I finally bought a brand new alternator. By week two that alternator basically caught on fire and the internal componentry were totally melted. It looked like burnished maple syrup. They replace it under warranty. now the replacement is burn and dead too? Engine is a Yanmar on a Pearson Sailboat. All this frustration after being sent defective cells for a DIY project that I finalle gave up on..

Why is LiFePO4 so complicated?



I was told drop them in and use(by the manufacturer.....? I should mention that after the second diode failed I called a marine sparkie ABYC who installed an argus FET and Balmar alternator protector but he says only external regulator can prevent alternator from getting too hot? Alternators have all been stock Yanmar 80A from Mack Booring..Batteries are groupe 31 Battleborn...I have now spent more on alternators than I did on batteries. I ran AGM for last 17 years with no issues other than only lasting 2-3 years.?

Had you read this before you embarked on your installation?:




https://marinehowto.com/drop-in-life...ated-consumer/
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Old 05-08-2022, 15:51   #47
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Re: On my fourth Alternator?

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I have Delco 90amp with a spark screen powering 8 85Volt coils and two electric motors running hydraulic pumps for my trim tabs, blower and bilge pumps. Two classic lead acid batteries 100 amp crank to keep this boat afloat. I fully expect to get two years from the batteries then pay 10$ to dispose of them. Seems dumb.
My sailboat has 6 100amp Lithium in ďMarine safe ď boxes. A UL CE SAE CSA ETL file costs about $250,000.00 a year to maintain. So China prints any number youíd like to see. Tested by independent labs the only portable heater tested bought from leading retailers was Phillips whom stated to the testers they are leaving the portable heater business as they could not compete.
Compound that with the misinformation from forum authorities struggling for cyber worship to talk you into using household plumbing or electrical in your boat.
With every claim of years of success doesnít change the fact that these self proclaimed marine experts are not electricians or plumbers. They are encouraged on by our desire to bring the entire house with us.
The biggest Chinese company making lithium 3.2 were designed for homes soon RV and Marine ď expertsĒ had them stuffed in. The company has never lived up to half their claims which has damaged the perceived value of an authentic system.

What on earth are you talking about?
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Old 05-08-2022, 16:10   #48
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Re: On my fourth Alternator?

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Rumor is that ABYC are going to support Lithium batteries, but within certain guidelines like Aural, or Visual indication of a pending battery disconnect event. This will require some interface, ie a CAN bus o something, between the batteries BMS and the boat. To my knowledge there are only a couple of Lithium battery manufactures that have this sort of feature.

No doubt this will put a lot of boats, outside Industry Advisory body supported guidelines.

Interesting times ahead.


There are BMSsí built that have just such capabilities.

The TAO bms covers these bases, and it can be used with any prismatic cell.
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Old 06-08-2022, 06:18   #49
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Re: On my fourth Alternator?

In the brochure it says you can add two lithium batteries to the two you upgraded. The start Battery is still lead acid. They all connect to a battery management system.
Thatís pretty much my boat except 6 house batteries and one 2500mA battery on a raspberry. A generator, shore powers , and solar panels keep them all happy, good and proper like.
Now Iím reading itís not approved ?

Iím a member of IESNA. Illuminating Engineering Society of North America.
I find what boaters know about LEDS or lighting in general too limited to discuss in forums. I just donít have the energy to explain things. That said we donít have any authorities. We watch Cities and municipalities put our guidelines into code enforce them but also be the only ones which break one. Any professional body governing emerging technologies and holding them back should be ignored. Legitimate CUL UL, and CE are just fine. ETL on small volume worth a second glance. Waiting for another group to add a label and manufacturing burden is beginning to sound like nonsense.
I see it on cereal boxes approved by five different groups but itís still not good for you.
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Old 06-08-2022, 08:39   #50
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On my fourth Alternator?

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So you are saying that "such paralleling could be done mechanically or via solid state switching".

Which seems to be what is being done in this video.

Previously you said "that's the way it should be", ie that it is bad and thus not allowed.

So now you seem to be saying it could be done, but the Industry Advisory guys dont support it.

It is yet to be officially determined but word on the street is ABYC will allow it.

I am much more familiar with ABYC Guidelines, although in this case the Lithium guidelines are not yet issued.

Getting back to Industry Advisory 'support'.

What I do know about ISO is that they are mostly quite similar to ABYC.

As yet, until TE-13 is issued soon, ABYC dont officially support Lithium batteries.

Do ISO support Lithium batteries?

Rumor is that ABYC are going to support Lithium batteries, but within certain guidelines like Aural, or Visual indication of a pending battery disconnect event. This will require some interface, ie a CAN bus o something, between the batteries BMS and the boat. To my knowledge there are only a couple of Lithium battery manufactures that have this sort of feature.

No doubt this will put a lot of boats, outside Industry Advisory body supported guidelines.

Interesting times ahead.


I said consistently that paralleling different chemistries is a bad idea and the ISO standard forbids it.

Dc dc converters can be used to charge one from the other

Both iso and ABYC require alarm notification of impending disconnects. This doesnít need CAN. It does mean interconnected BMS systems.
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Old 06-08-2022, 08:42   #51
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Re: On my fourth Alternator?

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Originally Posted by Rumrace View Post
In the brochure it says you can add two lithium batteries to the two you upgraded. The start Battery is still lead acid. They all connect to a battery management system.

Thatís pretty much my boat except 6 house batteries and one 2500mA battery on a raspberry. A generator, shore powers , and solar panels keep them all happy, good and proper like.

Now Iím reading itís not approved ?



Iím a member of IESNA. Illuminating Engineering Society of North America.

I find what boaters know about LEDS or lighting in general too limited to discuss in forums. I just donít have the energy to explain things. That said we donít have any authorities. We watch Cities and municipalities put our guidelines into code enforce them but also be the only ones which break one. Any professional body governing emerging technologies and holding them back should be ignored. Legitimate CUL UL, and CE are just fine. ETL on small volume worth a second glance. Waiting for another group to add a label and manufacturing burden is beginning to sound like nonsense.

I see it on cereal boxes approved by five different groups but itís still not good for you.


Whatís not approved is paralleling Li with lead acid. Thatís actually a good thing as itís a bad idea in general

Iím sure your insurance is fine with you ignoring industry standards or around here legally binding ISO ones.
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Old 06-08-2022, 13:42   #52
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Re: On my fourth Alternator?

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It sounds to me that there are some negative reasons I'm not yet aware of that others know of.
If one of the lead battery cells inside a 12v lead acid battery fails, instead of your lead battery dying a slow death, with Lithium connected to it, you get the potential of thousands of AMPs of current flowing into the lead battery. Trying to lift the voltage of the cells that are not dead. Likely produces a lot of heat. While I'm not sure of this scenario's outcome, I doubt it would be a great outcome.
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Old 06-08-2022, 14:06   #53
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Re: On my fourth Alternator?

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If one of the lead battery cells inside a 12v lead acid battery fails, instead of your lead battery dying a slow death, with Lithium connected to it, you get the potential of thousands of AMPs of current flowing into the lead battery. Trying to lift the voltage of the cells that are not dead. Likely produces a lot of heat. While I'm not sure of this scenario's outcome, I doubt it would be a great outcome.
Very true. I have pos battery terminal fuses. I guess that's why. But they are a good idea in every Battery installation but I know many boats I look at dont have them.
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Old Yesterday, 03:28   #54
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Re: On my fourth Alternator?

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Whatís not approved is paralleling Li with lead acid. Thatís actually a good thing as itís a bad idea in general

Iím sure your insurance is fine with you ignoring industry standards or around here legally binding ISO ones.
I'm sure you are correct about Lithium batteries being approved but I am obviously not as in the know as you. Can you point us to an ABYC reference please?
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Old Yesterday, 03:33   #55
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Re: On my fourth Alternator?

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I said consistently that paralleling different chemistries is a bad idea and the ISO standard forbids it.

Dc dc converters can be used to charge one from the other

Both iso and ABYC require alarm notification of impending disconnects. This doesnít need CAN. It does mean interconnected BMS systems.
Yes you are correct it doesnt need to be CAN, that was just an example.

My point was that most, including the most popular ones like BB dont have any external interface with the BMS. Yes I know there are a couple of high end drop ins.

When you say ABYC require alarms. Can you point us to a reference please? I am not aware of this.
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Old Yesterday, 03:47   #56
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Re: On my fourth Alternator?

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Whatís not approved is paralleling Li with lead acid. Thatís actually a good thing as itís a bad idea in general

Iím sure your insurance is fine with you ignoring industry standards or around here legally binding ISO ones.
Yes exactly, we are all trying to follow the Guidelines as much as possible. Not only to keep Insurance happy but more for me they make the most sense of what anybody knows. Some smart people have helped create them.

The only trouble I have is knowing the Guidelines well enough to know what is relevant. I feel I know more about them than many, but of course we all can learn a lot. That's why we are here. So if you can point us in the right direction, with references that would be appreciated.
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Old Yesterday, 04:03   #57
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Re: On my fourth Alternator?

Mixing AA battery types is a Nono. Says so on the package. Grad school students know better.
I’ve seen so many boat fires from electrical experts on boats I’ve lost count.
UL CSA SAE already had Marine and aviation products defined. They are just the stamp not the inventor or investor. When they impair growth in an industry they are liable.
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Old Yesterday, 05:31   #58
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On my fourth Alternator?

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Yes exactly, we are all trying to follow the Guidelines as much as possible. Not only to keep Insurance happy but more for me they make the most sense of what anybody knows. Some smart people have helped create them.

The only trouble I have is knowing the Guidelines well enough to know what is relevant. I feel I know more about them than many, but of course we all can learn a lot. That's why we are here. So if you can point us in the right direction, with references that would be appreciated.


ABYC will happily sell you the TE -13 standards service for coin of the realm as will ISO
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Old Yesterday, 05:36   #59
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On my fourth Alternator?

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Mixing AA battery types is a Nono. Says so on the package. Grad school students know better.
Iíve seen so many boat fires from electrical experts on boats Iíve lost count.
UL CSA SAE already had Marine and aviation products defined. They are just the stamp not the inventor or investor. When they impair growth in an industry they are liable.


Sorry , this post borders on Infowars style nonsense. Thereís no data behind what say

Firstly boat fires are not commonplace secondly so called marine experts are often just electricians. Proper engineers understand this type of stuff from first principles. Hence employ people that not only understand the practicals but also understand the technology.

Lastly ISO specs are largely developed to give technical criteria to the recreational craft directive. In my view standards are a good thing as they ď help ď to stamp out substandard products.

Boats these days are better built for a given price point , then ever before in my opinion. Standards help product manufacturers and help the industry sector. Free for all just encourages a race to the bottom , spurred by greed and profit at all costs. We donít need those players.
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Old Yesterday, 05:40   #60
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On my fourth Alternator?

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Yes you are correct it doesnt need to be CAN, that was just an example.

My point was that most, including the most popular ones like BB dont have any external interface with the BMS. Yes I know there are a couple of high end drop ins.

When you say ABYC require alarms. Can you point us to a reference please? I am not aware of this.


Te-13 and ISO/TS 23625:2021 are available for money from the respective organisation, if you are planing to spend the type of money on a Li install , those standards are cheap and a good investment

Both iso and ABYC require advance error alerting that battery disconnect will occur. This requires an interconnected BMS.

Drop in batteries without networkable bms systems are unlikely to meet either the ABYC or ISO specs

By the way this months Yachting Monthly had an article about Lithiums and quotes from various well known marine insurers.
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