Lithium and Insurance

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by PaulCrawhorn

Yes relatively, but much less so in the later developed world, often 100% of Tesla vehicles there are LFP

and not recent, been years now.

My terminology:

Lithium family, aka LI chemistries

include LFP and LTO the safe ones

"li-ion" specifically reserved for the higher density chemistries at nominal 3.6-3.7Vpc

more often used for EVs

all much more fire prone and shorter cycle lifespans

You can make up any personal terminology. Doesn’t make it right

The whole body of chemistry behind Lithium rechargeables is based on the movement of lithium ions. Hence the term Li-ion applies genetically to all types including LFP and LTO

[PaulCrawhorn]

What I outlined has become standard terminology in the vast majority of battery discussion forums, certainly in the dozen or so I frequent.

You can ignore the distinction but that is a waste.

Which shorthand will you choose for

the higher-density fire-prone LI chemistries that are usually used for propulsion but otherwise are not safe to use in a mobile context, that have a Vnominal of 3.6-3.7V

??

"all LI chemistries except LTO and LFP"

??

[T1 Terry]

Originally Posted by PaulCrawhorn

What I outlined has become standard terminology in the vast majority of battery discussion forums, certainly in the dozen or so I frequent.

You can ignore the distinction but that is a waste.

Which shorthand will you choose for

the higher-density fire-prone LI chemistries that are usually used for propulsion but otherwise are not safe to use in a mobile context, that have a Vnominal of 3.6-3.7V

??

"all LI chemistries except LTO and LFP"

??

They all fall under the LiPo catigory, (lithium Polymer) as explained here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithiu..._cobalt_oxides in a previous post. Maybe you can be the one to set those on the other forums in the right direction so the interweb can finally get the reference names correct and avoid the mass confusion that's there at the moment.
Even the "parrot" posters are getting all the references wrong and just making a bad message worse, I've reached the point now that if a poster can't even get the name right, the information following it will be worthless as well.

For a while, the LiPo will still need the (Lithium Polymer) in brackets after it to separate it from the other types of lithium chemistry that are safe.

T1 Terry

[wholybee]

wtf does LI mean? Is that a mis-capitalization of Li, or a non-standard abbreviation of Lithium-Ion?

My understanding:
Lithium-Ion refers to all cells which operate by the transfer of Lithium Ions, and Includes LiFePO4, NMC, LTO, and LiPo and others. Lithium-Ion is the all-encompassing term.

Whereas most designations (I.E. LiFePO4) refer to the cathode material, LiPo refers to the electrolyte. LiPo use a polymer electrolyte, which is more of a gel instead of a liquid. I have no idea if it exists, but at least in theory if I understand, a LiFePO4 battery can also be LiPo if a polymer electrolyte is used.

I agree it is important that these terms are used EXACTLY right, because the misuse but (sortof) accepted terminology we see everywhere leads to misinformation and mis understanding of what is safe and what is not.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by wholybee

wtf does LI mean? Is that a mis-capitalization of Li, or a non-standard abbreviation of Lithium-Ion?

My understanding:
Lithium-Ion refers to all cells which operate by the transfer of Lithium Ions, and Includes LiFePO4, NMC, LTO, and LiPo and others. Lithium-Ion is the all-encompassing term.

Whereas most designations (I.E. LiFePO4) refer to the cathode material, LiPo refers to the electrolyte. LiPo use a polymer electrolyte, which is more of a gel instead of a liquid. I have no idea if it exists, but at least in theory if I understand, a LiFePO4 battery can also be LiPo if a polymer electrolyte is used.

I agree it is important that these terms are used EXACTLY right, because the misuse but (sortof) accepted terminology we see everywhere leads to misinformation and mis understanding of what is safe and what is not.

Correct

li-ion is a generic term encompassing all forms of safe and unsafe lithium batteries , though the industry has referred to Lithiun ion as a the liquid electrolyte

liPo as you say is is an electrolyte , ie (Silicon-Graphene)

LFP is often used as a shorthand for LiFePO4

Note that all lithium tech can be assembled with liquid style electrolytes or polymer( li Po ) including LIFEPO4 but the industry tends to prefer one or the other on reality for version types.

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

Li-ion is just the name for the lithium based chemistry family.

The dangerous lithium cells are where they mix multiple compounds to make up the active material in the battery, as an example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithiu..._cobalt_oxides but sound safe by using the 3 letter name NMC, some have aluminium mixed in there as well and other rare compounds. These are all actually covered by the LiPo label https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithiu..._cobalt_oxides and the term is often confused with LiFeP04 because there is an Land i a P and an 0 in the chemical name for an LFP cell (lithium ferrous Phosphate) LYP cells throw another spanner in the works, Lithium Yttrium Ferrous Phosphate, so LYP is a safer name to avoid the confusion.
It used to be "if there was oxide in the name, then beware" but LTO cells stuffed that idea, Lithium Titanate Oxide https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/what-...ly-cynthia-pan

T1 Terry

Thanks. I guess we are safe using the specific battery type, such as LFP LiFePo or Lithium Ferrous Phosphate, or even LTO or whatever, and just stay away from the more general and generic Lithium terms.

[T1 Terry]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Thanks. I guess we are safe using the specific battery type, such as LFP LiFePo or Lithium Ferrous Phosphate, or even LTO or whatever, and just stay away from the more general and generic Lithium terms.

The full chemical name for LFP is LiFeP04 because that separates the Po representing polymer and P04 that represents phosphate ..... so using the lithium ferrous or LFP (LYP is just another division of the same chemistry but with Yttrium added to improve the thermal range the cells can handle and improves cycle life).
LTO or Lithium Titanate Oxide are the safest and longest lasting and can handle very high charging and discharging rates, but they are more expensive, require more cells to get the same voltage, and have theoretically less power density, but this relates to weight and the area they take up more than anything else, but are the ultimate for propulsion where big current is required without the voltage dropping .....

T1 Terry

[goboatingnow]

The lithium iron phosphate battery (abbreviated as Li-IP, LFP (lithium ferro-phosphate) or LiFePO
4 battery) is a type of lithium-ion battery using lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO
4) as the cathode material, and a graphitic carbon electrode with a metallic backing as the anode

LiFePO4 like things like Li -NMC etc refers to the cathode

No assumption can be made as to the electrolyte which can be liquid or polymer (PYR13TFSI) though most are liquid.

[rgleason]

So I am going to continue to use the specific reference LFP because it is short ans identifies the family we are generally working with.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by rgleason

So I am going to continue to use the specific reference LFP because it is short ans identifies the family we are generally working with.

Absolutely and the battery industry uses it too.

[T1 Terry]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The lithium iron phosphate battery (abbreviated as Li-IP, LFP (lithium ferro-phosphate) or LiFePO
4 battery) is a type of lithium-ion battery using lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO
4) as the cathode material, and a graphitic carbon electrode with a metallic backing as the anode

LiFePO4 like things like Li -NMC etc refers to the cathode

No assumption can be made as to the electrolyte which can be liquid or polymer (PYR13TFSI) though most are liquid.

And there is the catch, it is only the cathode when discharging, it is the anode when charging .... easier to refer to one plate as the active because it actually moves lithium ions in or out of its compound, the other plate is passive because it only holds the lithium ions but doesn't integrate them into its compound but rather holds them in the gaps that naturally occur in graphite and apparently graphene, ( intercalation) although I've never actually looked deeply into the whole graphene passive plate idea.

There is always more lithium ions available in the cell than spaces for them to fit in the passive or active plate (depending whether discharging or charging) and these remain in the electrolyte ...... the cell heating occurs when too many lithium ions are concentrated in the electrolyte. this can be caused by over voltage charging, under voltage discharging or trying to move the lithium ion faster through the electrolyte than the active or passive plate can accept them.

T1 Terry

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

And there is the catch, it is only the cathode when discharging, it is the anode when charging .... easier to refer to one plate as the active because it actually moves lithium ions in or out of its compound, the other plate is passive because it only holds the lithium ions but doesn't integrate them into its compound but rather holds them in the gaps that naturally occur in graphite and apparently graphene, ( intercalation) although I've never actually looked deeply into the whole graphene passive plate idea.



There is always more lithium ions available in the cell than spaces for them to fit in the passive or active plate (depending whether discharging or charging) and these remain in the electrolyte ...... the cell heating occurs when too many lithium ions are concentrated in the electrolyte. this can be caused by over voltage charging, under voltage discharging or trying to move the lithium ion faster through the electrolyte than the active or passive plate can accept them.



T1 Terry

Yes but the discharge description of it sacs cathode material is the commonly accepted usage

[PaulCrawhorn]

Using LI for Lithium, as in the overall umbrella category "family" name including LFP and LTO

allows li-ion to be restricted to

> the higher density chemistries at nominal 3.6-3.7Vpc

as is the case in many application use case topic areas.

This is not something I am making up, that is how li-ion is used in propulsion, EV, ebike and hobby forums now.

LiPo is just a packaging technology, yes there have over the years been many li-ion chemistries used for those extreme power-density applications - 20C actual continuous discharge rates now being at the low end

but the term LiPo itself does not signify chemistry, other than the li-ion subset, those fire-prone "higher density chemistries at nominal 3.6-3.7Vpc"

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by PaulCrawhorn

Using LI for Lithium, as in the overall umbrella category "family" name including LFP and LTO

allows li-ion to be restricted to

> the higher density chemistries at nominal 3.6-3.7Vpc

as is the case in many application use case topic areas.

This is not something I am making up, that is how li-ion is used in propulsion, EV, ebike and hobby forums now.

LiPo is just a packaging technology, yes there have over the years been many li-ion chemistries used for those extreme power-density applications - 20C actual continuous discharge rates now being at the low end

but the term LiPo itself does not signify chemistry, other than the li-ion subset, those fire-prone "higher density chemistries at nominal 3.6-3.7Vpc"

I must sorry , all you are doing is perpetuating already incorrect usages of these terms

Li -ion is a broad description of all lithium intercalation types.

Li-po refers to a particular type of electrolyte ( gel )

Lifepo4 could be li-po for example though commonly it’s liquid electrolyte

[RaymondR]

Do LiPo gel type have the memory problems other gel cells have?