LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by PacificGreen

Lord knows why you went with one idividual power supply in the first place to top balance all 16 of your cells. See the video above of that poor guy with his daytona electric car. What a nightmare for him to even consider top balancing small cells - a literal nightmare.
.

Maybe because it's not an issue?

Look I've been running my LiFePO4 400AH bank of 4-400AH 3.2v cells now for close to 3yrs. How many times have I needed to do a top balance?

I'll take, "Things Not Needed" for $500 Alex.

I did a top balance once...when installing them.
3yrs and no cell drift, no loss of capacity and no drama.

Something you will learn when going from planning, chatting and posting about the batteries to actually using them is that there is a damn lot of hype and hysteria on these LiFePO4 chat room internet threads compared to how easy these batteries really are to use.

[exMaggieDrum]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

Post 5511 was quoting Joe Parklane.....

Thanks for the clarification MS. I didn't take offense but I am proud of (I think) getting beyond the lead-acid mentality.

[exMaggieDrum]

Just a random not concerning why boaters use 12v systems. It's because the vast majority of gear for boats is for 12v. There is a lot of 24v, but not nearly as much. There are some good reasons to go with higher voltages but no one wants one more reason to make boating more expensive and difficult than it already is.

[PacificGreen]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

Maybe because it's not an issue?

Don't skirt around the procedure. With one charger top balancing is an arduous procedure. For you it wasn't because your smarter than average and only had to top balance 4 cells, whereas 16 or 32 or more is an entirely different beast altogether. This is how it should be done.

lithium & solar power LiFePO4

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

Look I've been running my LiFePO4 400AH bank of 4-400AH 3.2v cells now for close to 3yrs. How many times have I needed to do a top balance?

Nice bank for sure and great choice of chemistry and configuration. I would concur you will very seldom if ever need to balance that one again.

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

I'll take, "Things Not Needed" for $500 Alex.

I'm all in on that category and hope it is the daily double.

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

I did a top balance once...when installing them.
3yrs and no cell drift, no loss of capacity and no drama.

Exactly as planned perfect.

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

Something you will learn when going from planning, chatting and posting about the batteries to actually using them is that there is a damn lot of hype and hysteria on these LiFePO4 chat room internet threads compared to how easy these batteries really are to use.

I have learned it, chatted and posted about batteries. There is only hype and hysteria if you look at it that way. In reality we know different. For contrast:
16S 400ah 48v professional pack zero problems
4P4s 180ah 12v stuffed in a milk crate, small connectors, post loading, vibration, replacing cells, mixing old/new cells, once cell out of balance, two out of balance, less capacity in one cell, improper charging, improper storage.

These are real life differences that would make the expedient top balance important. Lets not discount the nature of the oceans and the sea as well. If you need to balance at sea in case of disaster, accident or otherwise how will that now be accomplished.

[greg_kulosa]

Originally Posted by PacificGreen

Don't skirt around the procedure. With one charger top balancing is an arduous procedure. For you it wasn't because your smarter than average and only had to top balance 4 cells, whereas 16 or 32 or more is an entirely different beast altogether. This is how it should be done.

lithium & solar power LiFePO4

I assume that you are referring to this section of that page you linked:

Charging 16 cells with 520 Amps (with 18 chargers)


I am not sure why you are giving someone else a hard time for using a method that worked for them. Yes, it's true that dealing with the interconnects to parallel 16 (or 32) batteries is a lot more than dealing with 4. But so what?

(Besides - your link still shows the interconnects to parallel all the cells, they just used multiple chargers).

And yes - if you have a small power supply (that only puts out 10 or 20 amps) it will take longer. Again - so what? If you don't have the money to purchase multiple 3.6volt chargers, but you do have the time to wait for a single one, that can be a good trade-off.

Plus - the dedicated 3.6volt chargers can only be used for that one purpose. The adjustable power supplies (like MaineSail mentions on his page) can be used to both top balance at 3.6 volt, and also to charge the whole pack at 13.8 volts once it is assembled. It's more versatile, and for those of us who are just building the one pack for our own use - it's a better investment.

Also - there are some good reasons for using multiple cells to build a pack (4P4S), instead of the larger cells:

- You can remove dead/bad cells, and still have a working pack at less capacity
- Space constraints - sometimes the large 400ah cells are harder to fit in small spaces
- Not all of us can lift a cell that large to move it around - but multiple, smaller cells are easier to handle

I would say let's just talk about what works for each of us, given our individual constraints, instead of assuming that one size fits all. There can be a lot of ways to do this "the right way".

(And yes, my bank is built and working just fine - only 3 months old, but it works, it's safe, and it was fun to learn about and build. My "cruiser" just happens to be a camping trailer, not a boat - but don't hold that against me!)

Thanks.

[exMaggieDrum]

Pacific Green, we are truly blessed to have you to show us the one true way, and especially, to highlight who the intelligent ones are on this site compared to the vast majority who obviously are not. Thank you.

[exMaggieDrum]

Originally Posted by greg_kulosa

I assume that you are referring to this section of that page you linked:

Charging 16 cells with 520 Amps (with 18 chargers)


I am not sure why you are giving someone else a hard time for using a method that worked for them. Yes, it's true that dealing with the interconnects to parallel 16 (or 32) batteries is a lot more than dealing with 4. But so what?

(Besides - your link still shows the interconnects to parallel all the cells, they just used multiple chargers).

And yes - if you have a small power supply (that only puts out 10 or 20 amps) it will take longer. Again - so what? If you don't have the money to purchase multiple 3.6volt chargers, but you do have the time to wait for a single one, that can be a good trade-off.

Plus - the dedicated 3.6volt chargers can only be used for that one purpose. The adjustable power supplies (like MaineSail mentions on his page) can be used to both top balance at 3.6 volt, and also to charge the whole pack at 13.8 volts once it is assembled. It's more versatile, and for those of us who are just building the one pack for our own use - it's a better investment.

Also - there are some good reasons for using multiple cells to build a pack (4P4S), instead of the larger cells:

- You can remove dead/bad cells, and still have a working pack at less capacity
- Space constraints - sometimes the large 400ah cells are harder to fit in small spaces
- Not all of us can lift a cell that large to move it around - but multiple, smaller cells are easier to handle

I would say let's just talk about what works for each of us, given our individual constraints, instead of assuming that one size fits all. There can be a lot of ways to do this "the right way".

(And yes, my bank is built and working just fine - only 3 months old, but it works, it's safe, and it was fun to learn about and build. My "cruiser" just happens to be a camping trailer, not a boat - but don't hold that against me!)

Thanks.

Well said.

[PacificGreen]

Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum

Pacific Green, we are truly blessed to have you to show us the one true way, and especially, to highlight who the intelligent ones are on this site compared to the vast majority who obviously are not. Thank you.

You know your a little too facetious. Make a mountain out of a molehill. Has little to do with the fact that I suggested something that may work to quickly top balance cells or highlighted some peoples mindsets/ reasons for going with parallel/serial versus simply series. To which some would have a normal conversation.

If I feel people that run with cells in straight series and keep the number of cells down to a minimum is smarter than going another way is that the true way? No, it is simply my opinion and I dare say there is little you can do to change that.

I don't really care one way or another how other people have configured their cells. Seriously your toxicity is doing nobody any favors especially in regard to this thread. The vast majority? Did you conduct a poll or something?

I've stated before they probably made decisions based on space and economic reasons and that I don't understand the mindset/reason. If you feel enamored to take it beyond that do so in a private message.

[PacificGreen]

Originally Posted by greg_kulosa

I assume that you are referring to this section of that page you linked:

Charging 16 cells with 520 Amps (with 18 chargers)

Yes that is an interesting picture of how the professionals would do top balancing.

Originally Posted by greg_kulosa

I am not sure why you are giving someone else a hard time for using a method that worked for them. Yes, it's true that dealing with the interconnects to parallel 16 (or 32) batteries is a lot more than dealing with 4. But so what?

Perhaps because your not sure I'm giving anyone a hard time. But so what you agree with me. It is on a scale of magnitude more difficult to top balance multiples of cells. I believe we agree.

Originally Posted by greg_kulosa

(Besides - your link still shows the interconnects to parallel all the cells, they just used multiple chargers).

That is the whole point. They make 16S or more chargers now that could be used to top balance cells. They are inexpensive. Most are used in the electric bike industry.

Originally Posted by greg_kulosa

And yes - if you have a small power supply (that only puts out 10 or 20 amps) it will take longer. Again - so what? If you don't have the money to purchase multiple 3.6volt chargers, but you do have the time to wait for a single one, that can be a good trade-off.

Certainly time over expense is always a good trade off. See my point above and the point I'm trying to make with having a device that can top balance multiple batteries at once.

Originally Posted by greg_kulosa

Plus - the dedicated 3.6volt chargers can only be used for that one purpose. The adjustable power supplies (like MaineSail mentions on his page) can be used to both top balance at 3.6 volt, and also to charge the whole pack at 13.8 volts once it is assembled. It's more versatile, and for those of us who are just building the one pack for our own use - it's a better investment.

Plus you can do lots of other things with those power supplies as well like capacity testing as well. They are a great investment.

Originally Posted by greg_kulosa

Also - there are some good reasons for using multiple cells to build a pack (4P4S), instead of the larger cells:

I'm completly sure they have their reasons or mindset for choosing what interconnect suits them.

Originally Posted by greg_kulosa

- You can remove dead/bad cells, and still have a working pack at less capacity
- Space constraints - sometimes the large 400ah cells are harder to fit in small spaces
- Not all of us can lift a cell that large to move it around - but multiple, smaller cells are easier to handle

Yes you have just restated the obvious reasons or mindsets.

Originally Posted by greg_kulosa

I would say let's just talk about what works for each of us, given our individual constraints, instead of assuming that one size fits all. There can be a lot of ways to do this "the right way".

I would have to agree but the conversation did bring up methods of easier top balancing cells with inexpensive devices. There is no assumption on my part that their reasons for doing what works for them is incorrect or wrong. They will all individually do it the right way according to their needs that is for sure.

Originally Posted by greg_kulosa

(And yes, my bank is built and working just fine - only 3 months old, but it works, it's safe, and it was fun to learn about and build. My "cruiser" just happens to be a camping trailer, not a boat - but don't hold that against me!)

Thanks.

Congratulations on your new bank, I'm glad it works and that it is safe. They are always fun to learn about and build. I wanted to put batteries in my coach like the technomad folks did at one time but that project didn't materialize. I won't be holding anything against you, lol.

[greg_kulosa]

Originally Posted by PacificGreen

Perhaps because your not sure I'm giving anyone a hard time. But so what you agree with me. It is on a scale of magnitude more difficult to top balance multiples of cells. I believe we agree.

Hmm - maybe you don't realize how you are coming across - it seems to me that you have disparaged ExMaggieDrum and his setup. That's my opinion.

I don't agree it's an order of magnitude more difficult to top balance 16 vs 4 cells - just "more" difficult. It's not 10x harder. It might be 4x harder to set up the interconnect links (4 times as many links), but the top-balance part is the same, no matter how many cells - so maybe 3.5x harder overall?

Originally Posted by PacificGreen

I would have to agree but the conversation did bring up methods of easier top balancing cells with inexpensive devices. There is no assumption on my part that their reasons for doing what works for them is incorrect or wrong. They will all individually do it the right way according to their needs that is for sure.

Well, back in #5574 - you said:

Originally Posted by PacificGreen

Lord knows why you went with one idividual power supply in the first place to top balance all 16 of your cells. See the video above of that poor guy with his daytona electric car. What a nightmare for him to even consider top balancing small cells - a literal nightmare.

When someone says "Lord knows why you did that" - it implies that you think they are incorrect or wrong. Then you call it "a nightmare".

So - if you are wondering where someone might get the impression that you think they did it incorrectly - it's from your words.

I have read this whole thread from the beginning (took me weeks!). The great benefit here is that people are willing to talk about their approaches in a very civilized manner. That open dialogue helps the exchange of ideas.

So let's move on - is there some technical aspect of this that is worth sharing our experience about? In a polite way - even if we do not agree?

Thanks for listening.

[autumnbreeze27]

Originally Posted by PacificGreen

What size are your cells and how many if you don't mind me asking? You have the miniBMS clone produced by Balqon then.

4 x 400ah batteries. Here's a pic. It's always bugged me that I didn't know any tech details of the BMS. Will see what I can look up on miniBMS.

[PacificGreen]

Originally Posted by greg_kulosa

Hmm - maybe you don't realize how you are coming across - it seems to me that you have disparaged ExMaggieDrum and his setup. That's my opinion.

Certainly not sugar coated that is for sure. Perhaps you would like to suggest to him a way to get individual voltmeter readings from his battery bank? I've tried - he didn't like what I said that is for sure.

Originally Posted by greg_kulosa

I don't agree it's an order of magnitude more difficult to top balance 16 vs 4 cells - just "more" difficult. It's not 10x harder. It might be 4x harder to set up the interconnect links (4 times as many links), but the top-balance part is the same, no matter how many cells - so maybe 3.5x harder overall?

Great so we agree.

Originally Posted by greg_kulosa

Well, back in #5574 - you said:

Originally Posted by greg_kulosa

When someone says "Lord knows why you did that" - it implies that you think they are incorrect or wrong. Then you call it "a nightmare".

Please don't quote me out of context. I said exactly this:

Lord knows why you went with one idividual power supply in the first place to top balance all 16 of your cells. See the video above of that poor guy with his daytona electric car. What a nightmare for him to even consider top balancing small cells - a literal nightmare.

It specifically implies the only the Lord knows why he would top balance the way he did. Then I did not call his individual cell balancing a nightmare I called the guy with the daytona a nightmare.

Originally Posted by greg_kulosa

So - if you are wondering where someone might get the impression that you think they did it incorrectly - it's from your words.

I'm not really wondering about the impression they did it incorrectly. What they choose to read into the constructive contribution is up to them.

Originally Posted by greg_kulosa

I have read this whole thread from the beginning (took me weeks!). The great benefit here is that people are willing to talk about their approaches in a very civilized manner. That open dialogue helps the exchange of ideas.

Yes I would agree and some civility would help facilitate that more especially when exchanging ideas. I in no way accept any fault about sugar coating a contribution someone didn't want to read. I have said nothing uncivilized. Had the person responded the same way instead of going way off topic we may have not had this little interlude.

Originally Posted by greg_kulosa

So let's move on - is there some technical aspect of this that is worth sharing our experience about? In a polite way - even if we do not agree?

Well said and I would hope others are as polite even if they don't like what they read. Debate the topic not the person, keep the emotions in check. Read what is written and respond.

Originally Posted by greg_kulosa

Thanks for listening.

Thanks for reading.

[PacificGreen]

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27

4 x 400ah batteries. Here's a pic. It's always bugged me that I didn't know any tech details of the BMS. Will see what I can look up on miniBMS.

I'll try and fast forward for you. It is called the QanbusBMS or something. Their site is down now. I may have the documentation for it somewhere not sure. In many respects it is the same as the HousePower BMS or miniBMS produced by Dimitri from Clean Power Auto.

I think with these systems it is probably one of the things that should be considered as an upgrade considering what is available today for obtain and tracking data from the bank.

Consider EliteBMS or one I'm studying lately smartBMS123. The later looks really good with the Iphone and adroid App all done by bluetooth to your phone. Handles solar input as well. Seems affordable and was contemplating retrofitting somehow inline with the HousePower Disconnect contact.

[SV THIRD DAY]

Tip-O-The-Day

Internet Trolling:
In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

Tip-O-The-Day

Internet Trolling:
In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

And it's so nice that CF is void of such creatures!