Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-11-2022, 19:31   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Lifeaboard
Boat: FP Lavezzi 40
Posts: 1,415
Charging 24V Lithium via a 12V to 24V buck converter from a 12V alternator/starter

Hi all,


thinking about changing my house bank from 12 to 24V.


A main cost factor is that both engines with starter/alternator are 12V and new, so do the 12V starter batteries. The alternators are the well known 12V 115A Mitsubishi with internal temp regulation doing 60-80A constant, so 2x80A=160A charge.


Earlier times in car stereo competition (alternator was by far too small, toping a bit up while driving was ok) I was always charging my Lifepo4 with a big 230V power supply with fixed 14.2V/100A output and had a relais that was controlled by BMS cutting the plus when one cell reached 3,60V. Worked totally fine for over 10 years.


So converting that to the boat world:

A 40A Buck converter 12V to 28V connected to 300AH lead hybrid starter/service bank (and the 12V 115A Mitzi alternator) that converts 11-16V to 28,0V and charges with fix 28,0V and 40A (so 80A at the alternator). To cut charge in the input 12,0V plus cable a 100A relais controlled by the BMS which basically shuts down the buck converter.

The Victron BMV 712 battery monitor is already connect to the 300AH lead hybrid starter in STB hull and also to the 180AH starter in the BB hull. THe BMV 712 has a programable relais output. That BMV 712 relais ouput I can programme to 13,5V and also connect it to the charge cut off relais, so if the starter/service goes below 13,5V the buck charging to LFP is disabled. So the starter bank cannot be discharged to more then 80% and the Lithium is charged to 100%. It cannot dedect if the alternator is running but I don't care as 13,5V is more then enough to start engines plus if LFP is full the starter will be fully charged too. There is a 80W solar panel connected to starter that always tops it up, so the lead gets full.
Alternativly I could also connect the relay charge cut off to the ignition switch, so buck converter only charges when ignition is on and voltage is above 13,5V.


for 12V anchor whinch (also newly overhauled with 12V 1000W motor) I use a 24V to 13,8V buck converter with 120A to run it off the lithium and at the output a 1 or 2 switch so I can also use the anchor whinch of the 12V starter in emergency.

Would that work?

Reason is i am having 6,5kw inverter at 12V now, working fine but 24V would be beneficial but wasn't possible due to 12 cells, but now i got 4 additional.

If yes 12V to 24V conversion costs would be small:
12-28V Buck converter 40A is 140$ plus 50Euro for a 100A relais for charging for each engine (so total 200Euro per one/400Euro for both). Buddy using that one since years.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3269...314014486%21sh

24V to 13,8V 120A buck converter for anchor whinch is 122Euro
https://es.aliexpress.com/item/32878...yAdapt=glo2esp

Another 24V to 13,8V buck converter in 100A for 78Euro the nav station to run all 12V equipment
https://es.aliexpress.com/item/32878...yAdapt=glo2esp



Most costs would be offset by selling 2x Orion Smart DC2DC 12 12 30A



Biggest cost switching out the Multiplus 12/3000/120 with the 24V/5000/120 for about 700Euro additional



"old" Multiplus 12/3000/120 is 4 month old, easy to sell.
CaptainRivet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2022, 20:00   #2
Registered User
 
rgleason's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: 1981 Bristol 32 Sloop
Posts: 16,761
Images: 2
Re: Charging 24V Lithium via a 12V to 24V buck converter from a 12V alternator/starte

Why not convert your alternator to 24v? It would be more efficient charging.
rgleason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2022, 20:11   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,049
Images: 1
Re: Charging 24V Lithium via a 12V to 24V buck converter from a 12V alternator/starte

Ideally the DC/DC converter will throttle output based both on the 24V bank voltage and charge protocol, and ALSO the 12V input side voltage. The reason is that at reduced engine RPMs the alternator output will be reduced. But if it's not smart enough, the convert will still draw full power if the 24V side can accept it. That will in turn start drawing down your start batteries to charge your LFP batteries. I think you need a DC/DC that reduces output to keep the input side above some voltage to ensure power is all coming from the alternator. I have no idea what DC/DC converters might do that.
__________________
www.MVTanglewood.com
tanglewood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2022, 20:22   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Lifeaboard
Boat: FP Lavezzi 40
Posts: 1,415
Re: Charging 24V Lithium via a 12V to 24V buck converter from a 12V alternator/starte

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
Why not convert your alternator to 24v? It would be more efficient charging.

several reasons:

1) One 24V alternator would be 500Euro by 2 engines=1000Euro plus I have a 12V spare, means another 500Euro=1500Euro...and then I have 3x 12V ones i have no use for...

2) 2xstarter is new and 12V too, anchor whinch 12V motor new too (i bought cat like this)

3) Main charge source is solar which i can just switch to 24V, alternator just have to work and not fry...well in the cheapest way savely deliver max stock can do to not waste energy. I am overpowered, so always have the 5hp extra.
CaptainRivet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2022, 20:32   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Lifeaboard
Boat: FP Lavezzi 40
Posts: 1,415
Re: Charging 24V Lithium via a 12V to 24V buck converter from a 12V alternator/starte

Quote:
Originally Posted by tanglewood View Post
Ideally the DC/DC converter will throttle output based both on the 24V bank voltage and charge protocol, and ALSO the 12V input side voltage. The reason is that at reduced engine RPMs the alternator output will be reduced. But if it's not smart enough, the convert will still draw full power if the 24V side can accept it. That will in turn start drawing down your start batteries to charge your LFP batteries. I think you need a DC/DC that reduces output to keep the input side above some voltage to ensure power is all coming from the alternator. I have no idea what DC/DC converters might do that.

the buck converter I posted converts 11 till 16V input to 28,0V output (+/-0.1V) means doesn't matter which volatge the alternator puts out, the output voltage is constant. The LFP takes the amps it can and automatically reduces the amps if its getting close to 3,5V, if full at 3,55V the BMS shuts buck converter off.
Actually thats how you top balance, you simply take a power supply, adjust it to fixed 3,65V, the LFP cell charges with max amps power supply can deliver and then regulates amps down till you reach 3,65A. then you wait till its at 0,1A charge current, job done.


In very Low RPM (1000 till 1400) the Mitsubishi alternator will still supply 80A around 15min long, then it will throttle down to 60A due to running to hot (internal temp regualtion) and maybe after 30min to 35-40A. So for the short periode of time eg anchoring or maneuvering no problem. If longer then 15min the rest will come from the starter bank till at 13,5V=80% then the BMV712 will switch buck converter=charge off till the starter bank is full enough to start charging again or the engines revs up=alternator can deliver 80A.
Not perfect but works good enough...

Yes a mod i wanna do too to make the alternator pulley smaller to run it faster, so at 1300RPM i already have the full 80A const. Possible as the mitzi runs with 1:1,63 ratio and has a orange line of 16000RPM means running it at 1:2 makes 6000RPM at the limiter of the engine by reducing the pulley from 62mm to 50mm on the alternator. Faster and I have to change all pulleys, as you then need to swap the crank shaft pulley to a bigger but the water pump pulley also bigger one as it cannot run faster because it turns into foam maker and dies quick.
CaptainRivet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2022, 23:11   #6
Marine Service Provider
 
SOLAR SUPPORT's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Turkiye
Boat: Bavaria Match35 Meltemi
Posts: 253
Re: Charging 24V Lithium via a 12V to 24V buck converter from a 12V alternator/starte

Can you explain the reason to convert your banks from 12V to 24V?
SOLAR SUPPORT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-11-2022, 02:56   #7
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,818
Images: 3
Re: Charging 24V Lithium via a 12V to 24V buck converter from a 12V alternator/starte

I just received a 80A dc Dc for the alternator from China yesterday
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-11-2022, 04:20   #8
Registered User
 
Jammer's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Minnesota
Boat: Tartan 3800
Posts: 3,582
Re: Charging 24V Lithium via a 12V to 24V buck converter from a 12V alternator/starte

Sure, you could make it work. I don't think it would be worth it.


On a boat, there are three possible benefits to using 24v rather than 12v as the main storage voltage for the house batteries:


1. You can operate a large bow thruster without running heavy and expensive high-current cabling and without setting up a separate bow thruster battery.


2. On the engine, you can use 24v alternators, which give you somewhat more power in the same amount of space and are less prone to overheating.



3. You can run smaller cabling between the batteries and the inverter-charger, and it becomes more reasonable to run very large loads, such as an electric galley or air conditioning.


If you have a 6.5 kw inverter and it is installed and working fine, and you don't have a bow thruster, and you don't want to change out the alternators, there is no good reason to switch to 24v unless you've run out of boat projects and just want to do a science experiment "4 the lulz."


When you add complexity you add potential points of failure and you add difficulty to future troubleshooting and maintenance.



My advice, if you really want a 24v bank for the inverter, would be to add one and leave your 12v system unchanged. Just have the 24v bank connected to the inverter and the 12v bank connected to everything else. If you want to charge the 12v from an AC source add a charger to do that. If you want to charge the 24v from the alternators then add a DC-DC converter to do that, just one.
__________________
The difference between plans and dreams is that plans acknowledge the existence of inconvenient facts
Jammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-11-2022, 11:32   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,049
Images: 1
Re: Charging 24V Lithium via a 12V to 24V buck converter from a 12V alternator/starte

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainRivet View Post
the buck converter I posted converts 11 till 16V input to 28,0V output (+/-0.1V) means doesn't matter which volatge the alternator puts out, the output voltage is constant. The LFP takes the amps it can and automatically reduces the amps if its getting close to 3,5V, if full at 3,55V the BMS shuts buck converter off.
Actually thats how you top balance, you simply take a power supply, adjust it to fixed 3,65V, the LFP cell charges with max amps power supply can deliver and then regulates amps down till you reach 3,65A. then you wait till its at 0,1A charge current, job done.


In very Low RPM (1000 till 1400) the Mitsubishi alternator will still supply 80A around 15min long, then it will throttle down to 60A due to running to hot (internal temp regualtion) and maybe after 30min to 35-40A. So for the short periode of time eg anchoring or maneuvering no problem. If longer then 15min the rest will come from the starter bank till at 13,5V=80% then the BMV712 will switch buck converter=charge off till the starter bank is full enough to start charging again or the engines revs up=alternator can deliver 80A.
Not perfect but works good enough...

Yes a mod i wanna do too to make the alternator pulley smaller to run it faster, so at 1300RPM i already have the full 80A const. Possible as the mitzi runs with 1:1,63 ratio and has a orange line of 16000RPM means running it at 1:2 makes 6000RPM at the limiter of the engine by reducing the pulley from 62mm to 50mm on the alternator. Faster and I have to change all pulleys, as you then need to swap the crank shaft pulley to a bigger but the water pump pulley also bigger one as it cannot run faster because it turns into foam maker and dies quick.

Here's what I think it will do. Let's assume your LFP bank is low and will accept the full 40A charge rate for a while.


- You start the engine, and set an RPM that can supply the full 80A. The charger will run, consume all the available power from the alternator, and not draw from the battery. This is the ideal situation.


- As the alternator warms up, it's output will drop to 60A. The converter is still pulling full power, so 60A will come from the alternator, and 20A from the start battery. Between the two power sources, sufficient voltage will be maintained to keep the converter running, but it will be in the 12V to 12.5V range depending on battery charge level.



- As the alternator warms more, the output will drop to 40A. Now the alternator is contributing 40A and the battery is contributing 40A. Voltage is now down around 12V. Your start battery probably isn't much more than 100Ah, plus at such a high discharge rate the Peukert effect will be high. You probably only have 1 hr like this until the start battery is exhausted, voltage drops, and the converter shuts off. The engine might die too depending on what power it needs to run. You now have a dead start battery and a partially charged house battery.


The fundamental issue is that the converter assume all the power it needs is always available, and it takes it. Any time the alternator can't keep up, the balance will come from the start battery. I think the only way it works is if you get the LFP house bank recharged before you flatten the start battery, and in that case you have just transferred charge from the start battery to the house battery with associated losses incurred. Or you need a dc/dc converter that regulates off the input voltage as well at the output voltage, and throttles output to maintain input voltage over 13V or so to be sure it's all coming from the alternator and not the battery.


I wouldn't be surprised if such a DC/DC converter exists, but you would have to research it pretty carefully. Most sales and tech support people wouldn't even understand the question, let alone be able to give a definitive answer. But I think Sterling makes a device intended for exactly this purpose, so you might start there. I also think you want a converter that will throttle it's output to maintain input voltage, not just one that will turn on and off based on input voltage. Otherwise it will spend all it's time turning on and off rather than charging the battery at whatever max rate is possible at the time.


Oh, I just thought of another way to handle it. Use a DC/DC converter that will never draw more than the minimum available from the alternator, so 40A in this case. Then the alternator will always be able to keep up, even if just barely.
__________________
www.MVTanglewood.com
tanglewood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-11-2022, 18:01   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: canada
Posts: 4,314
Re: Charging 24V Lithium via a 12V to 24V buck converter from a 12V alternator/starte

you dont want a converter that will draw from 11-16v. you want one that will only draw when excess power is available...

the victron orion smart is voltage triggered and will throttle back charge amps to maintain voltage on the start bank if the alt can't keep up. instead of draining the engine battery into the house battery.

that is the correct piece to use. I'm still waiting for them to make bigger ones... for now you need a couple small ones in parellel

it sounds like you bought a cheap and less useful piece and now need to figure out how to control it under a bunch of different scenarios...
smac999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-11-2022, 06:51   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,049
Images: 1
Re: Charging 24V Lithium via a 12V to 24V buck converter from a 12V alternator/starte

Quote:
Originally Posted by smac999 View Post
you dont want a converter that will draw from 11-16v. you want one that will only draw when excess power is available...

the victron orion smart is voltage triggered and will throttle back charge amps to maintain voltage on the start bank if the alt can't keep up. instead of draining the engine battery into the house battery.

that is the correct piece to use. I'm still waiting for them to make bigger ones... for now you need a couple small ones in parellel

it sounds like you bought a cheap and less useful piece and now need to figure out how to control it under a bunch of different scenarios...


This is the desired functionality that Iíve tried to describe. Glad to hear it exists.
__________________
www.MVTanglewood.com
tanglewood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2022, 19:04   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Lifeaboard
Boat: FP Lavezzi 40
Posts: 1,415
Re: Charging 24V Lithium via a 12V to 24V buck converter from a 12V alternator/starte

Quote:
Originally Posted by smac999 View Post
you dont want a converter that will draw from 11-16v. you want one that will only draw when excess power is available...

the victron orion smart is voltage triggered and will throttle back charge amps to maintain voltage on the start bank if the alt can't keep up. instead of draining the engine battery into the house battery.

that is the correct piece to use. I'm still waiting for them to make bigger ones... for now you need a couple small ones in parellel

it sounds like you bought a cheap and less useful piece and now need to figure out how to control it under a bunch of different scenarios...
I didnít buy anything, I am just thinking through an alternative solution to convert from 12 to 24V.
I am having now Victron Orion Smart DC2DC but in 12/12 30A. And actually they do nothing else then switch on if 13.5V of starter lead is minimum available and kick in with full 30A without any possiblity to reduce/limit the current. If voltage drops below 13,5V it switches off, same when BMS switches it off via remote input.
My solution:
As discribed above the BMV 712 will switch the Buck converter off via itís programmable relay output when starter lead voltage is below 13.5V. So I cannot drain starter beyond 13.5V. Above the buck converter converts 12 to 24V with 80A till the BMS shuts it off. I could even connect the ignition plus to the relay too .so the buck converter can only be on if engine is running.
Like this I only draw when excess power is available.
CaptainRivet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2022, 19:46   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Lifeaboard
Boat: FP Lavezzi 40
Posts: 1,415
Re: Charging 24V Lithium via a 12V to 24V buck converter from a 12V alternator/starte

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I just received a 80A dc Dc for the alternator from China yesterday
80A buck converter or DC2DC charger for the alternator? Which one, do you have a link please?
CaptainRivet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2022, 19:57   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Lifeaboard
Boat: FP Lavezzi 40
Posts: 1,415
Re: Charging 24V Lithium via a 12V to 24V buck converter from a 12V alternator/starte

Quote:
Originally Posted by tanglewood View Post
This is the desired functionality that I’ve tried to describe. Glad to hear it exists.

yes i have the Victron Orion TR Smart in 12/12 30A version in my 12V setup now. Well 2 sided sword:
Negativ:

- Gets extremly hot, then throttling down the amps
- how long will it live frying the condensator/semi conductors with 60-70 degrees celcius??=> you need active ducted cooling to keep it below 40 degrees celcius and not throttling the 30A...
- you cannot limit the amp output to eg 20A
- doesn't show in the BT app how much amp goes in and come out
- besides the battery type you can only adjust start and shut off voltage (no custom setup of battery type possible)
positive:
- its a victron...
- communication and app via Bluetooth
- does what a DC2DC should do
And this costs 250-300Euro for 30A....too much and I even have to DIY a solution for active ducted cooling additional to keep it below 40 degrees celcius and not throttling the 30A...and not cooking its internal electronic to death...too expensive for what they do. Would I buy them again...NO.

For 12-24A only a 15A version for 300Euro exists, I have 2 engine and would therefor need 4x means 4x300Euro=1200Euro...then its cheaper to get 2x 24V alternators which deliver around 2x45=90A instead 4x15A=60A from DC2DC.
CaptainRivet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2022, 20:33   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Lifeaboard
Boat: FP Lavezzi 40
Posts: 1,415
Re: Charging 24V Lithium via a 12V to 24V buck converter from a 12V alternator/starte

Quote:
Originally Posted by tanglewood View Post
Here's what I think it will do. Let's assume your LFP bank is low and will accept the full 40A charge rate for a while.


- You start the engine, and set an RPM that can supply the full 80A. The charger will run, consume all the available power from the alternator, and not draw from the battery. This is the ideal situation.


- As the alternator warms up, it's output will drop to 60A. The converter is still pulling full power, so 60A will come from the alternator, and 20A from the start battery. Between the two power sources, sufficient voltage will be maintained to keep the converter running, but it will be in the 12V to 12.5V range depending on battery charge level.



- As the alternator warms more, the output will drop to 40A. Now the alternator is contributing 40A and the battery is contributing 40A. Voltage is now down around 12V. Your start battery probably isn't much more than 100Ah, plus at such a high discharge rate the Peukert effect will be high. You probably only have 1 hr like this until the start battery is exhausted, voltage drops, and the converter shuts off. The engine might die too depending on what power it needs to run. You now have a dead start battery and a partially charged house battery.


The fundamental issue is that the converter assume all the power it needs is always available, and it takes it. Any time the alternator can't keep up, the balance will come from the start battery. I think the only way it works is if you get the LFP house bank recharged before you flatten the start battery, and in that case you have just transferred charge from the start battery to the house battery with associated losses incurred. Or you need a dc/dc converter that regulates off the input voltage as well at the output voltage, and throttles output to maintain input voltage over 13V or so to be sure it's all coming from the alternator and not the battery.


I wouldn't be surprised if such a DC/DC converter exists, but you would have to research it pretty carefully. Most sales and tech support people wouldn't even understand the question, let alone be able to give a definitive answer. But I think Sterling makes a device intended for exactly this purpose, so you might start there. I also think you want a converter that will throttle it's output to maintain input voltage, not just one that will turn on and off based on input voltage. Otherwise it will spend all it's time turning on and off rather than charging the battery at whatever max rate is possible at the time.


Oh, I just thought of another way to handle it. Use a DC/DC converter that will never draw more than the minimum available from the alternator, so 40A in this case. Then the alternator will always be able to keep up, even if just barely.

did you really read my described suggested solution?
=>300AH/180AH starter can never be drained by buck converter past 13,5V or 80% capacity left.
How?:

I already have a Victron BMV 712 battery monitor connected and monitoring the 300AH lead starter/House bank (the old house bank, classic catamaran setup) in the STB hull plus the 180AH lead starter in STB hull. The BMV 712 has a programmable output to stear a relay that I can program so if 300AH or 180AH starter lead/house is below 13.5V the BMV 712 shuts off the Buck converter via the relay. Means the 300AH(STB bank) or 180AH (BB Bank) starter can never be drained by the buck converter below 13,5V or 80% capacity left.

To the same relay i can/could also connect the ignition cable so the relay is only active (and able to shut on the Buck converter) when engine is running. plus a manual switch connected to the relay so I can always shut on/off manually the buck converter but only if starter is above 13.5V.
So "The fundamental issue is that the converter assume all the power it needs is always available" is solved by the buck converter is only on if a) starter is >13,5V and b)theLPF house BMS allows charge and c)engine is running and/or d)the manual switch is in "on-position".

As I said not perfect but good enough I can charge 24V LFP house with 2x80A (with the original 12V alternator and 2x200Euro invest) and cannot flatten the starter. Yes starter will cycle a bit more and more often at 80% which will shorten their lifespan a bit, I can live with that.

40AH always minimum charge (thats about the right minimum amount of the 115A mitizi):
yes if > 40% of time I have less then 80A charge from alternator after 15min runtime then this would make sense to only get a 40A one.
I assume (from past year experience) that in 70-80% of runtime i can charge with 75-80A, >=1500RPM. So I only have to take care about the 20-30% time I get less then 80A. I again assume half of that 20-30% time its maybe 10-20min I need additional 20A from the starter (mostly during longer anchoring operations, eg anchor stuck), again no problem the 300AH/180AH starter banks can deliver that easly.
So only in 10% of time where the BMV712 will actually pull the trigger and disconnect the starter lead because the buck converter drained starter below the 13,5V.
So it makes more sense to have 2x80A buck converter in 90% of the time running full power as i get much more AH out of this setup and well in 10% its suboptimal but cannot cause an issue or damage. ANd in this 10% I most like will be aware that i run the engine at low rpm eg 1300RPM for a long time and manually shut off the buck converter.
CaptainRivet is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
alternator, charging, lithium

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Protect 24v alternator with charging lithium battery ArranP Lithium Power Systems 8 06-06-2021 05:44
can you make a 12v alternator into a 24v alternator SVSAVANNAH Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 90 17-08-2020 12:21
Lithium 12v to 24v Step up converter Sailbrandison Construction, Maintenance & Refit 1 20-04-2019 11:24
Charging 24v Bank from 12v Alternator Dockhead Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 45 05-09-2017 05:42
PUR 40E On 24V to 12V DC to DC Converter, starting amperage botanybay Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 7 07-11-2012 23:38

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 00:23.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.