LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Gbtillman

Interesting article, primarily the last few paraggraphs, on the Boeing battery testing and that only the LiFePO4 technology passes the testing.

Boeing puts 787 battery to tough tests it once avoided | Fox Business

not quite, one company said they had to use Iron Phosphate to pass the RTCA tests , Boeing however are beleived to be subjecting the Li-Co batteries to teh RTCA tests

dave

[T1 Terry]

Where did the report that Winston Battery Company is in bankrupcy come from? I hope you aren't getting mislead by that nonsense statement released by Sinolpoly, the disclaimer on the top says it's not backed by anybody, just Sinopoly whinging again and flapping their gums.

T1 Terry

[hellosailor]

The last discussion of the releases from Sinopoly seemed to confirm that there is a bankruptcy action going on. Are you saying that's all a lie, which would be a criminal libel falsified by Sinopoly then? I thought the only question was a matter of how the link to the court was being presented, making the action hard to actually find, but actually there? As to which of Winston's companies is which...that I don't know the details of the relationships of.

I still find it amusing that Balqon may have accidentally provided a statutory four year full replacement unlimited warranty on their batteries, or perhaps a five year unlimited warranty, by simply not knowing that in the US that's what you may provide when you fail to follow warranty laws requiring a prior disclosement of anything else. (Yes, there's a reason that web sites normally carry warranty statements. Balqon's doesn't.)

But hey, maybe they'll survive and come to dominate the market. Even if there is a bankruptcy filed or forced.

[FlyingCloud1937]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

Where did the report that Winston Battery Company is in bankrupcy come from? I hope you aren't getting mislead by that nonsense statement released by Sinolpoly, the disclaimer on the top says it's not backed by anybody, just Sinopoly whinging again and flapping their gums.

T1 Terry

Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
Quote:
Originally Posted by deckofficer
Plug in the case number and year here Legal Reference System

and you will find "no results". Like I said this war has been going on for a couple of years and Sinopoly has been slinging mud better than any US politician. If you can link me to a China court website that shows what Sinopoly's press release alleges I would concede this point, but like I said, anything put out by Sinopoly about Winston is suspect.

When I plug "No. 4005 of 2012 of the High Court of The Hong Kong Special Administrative Region" into a search engine, all I get is results generated by Sinopoly and results from The High Court of Hong Kong. When I go to the Court website and search for the above, again "no results".

Here you go right from the very link you posted Legal Reference System

Lloyd

Terry, also go to the SEC and read Bolqon's 10K reports http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1175106

[hellosailor]

BALQON CORP (BLQN:OTC BB): Financial Statements - Businessweek

Of course those could all be lies too.

[T1 Terry]

Hmmm....... That looks like stock trading figures at the top of that link, anyone know of a bankrupt company that is still trading shares on the stock market? They aren't showing a net profit, although they are showing a gross profit, I think the parent company may be able to support that US$47.1million if it can shift the old stock they would have been burying if it remained in China.
All of these companies need to build a market to move their product, nothing new about that, it costs money to develop that market, nothing new about that either.
Sinopoly has been carrying on like little children ever since they got stung when Winston Chung split from Thundersky and took his knowledge with him. Then they got really dirty when they bought the Thundersky name from Winston Chung, some how thinking this would stop him from manufacturing the battery chemistry he developed, when it didn't they got real dirty. What they did buy was the right to use the yttrium compound in their cell chemistry, that put them on a level playing field with Winston Battery company and head and shoulders above the others, without having to do any development work themselves.
Don't confuse the US system and laws with the Chinese system and laws, nothing in common, Winston and Sinopoly are the only one with manufacturing companies tied in to exclusive production agreements, the others just buy them from who ever is selling at the best price at the time, then they go into an arrangement for that manufacturer to assemble the cells into their colour and stamped cases.
These company names we know are just the sales front, they are not the massive manufacturing and sales companies you think of when linking them with US style companies.
Winston went into a joint manufacturing agreement with Russia and built a huge factory in Russia, where is Sinopolys manufacturing plants?
Balqon actually build battery powered trucks, that is a huge step outside the usual business path of the other lithium battery resellers, that takes commitment to build a market, do you think if Winston Chung was on the verge of bankruptcy he would be splashing out the cash to develop markets?
Sinopoly are banking on people who don't understand the Chinese system to be scared off the Winston cells and buy their cells in preference, and that's just what this sort of stuff perpetuates, not a good way to do business in my opinion.

T1 Terry

[deckofficer]

Terry,

Very well put. Balqon was helped with the battery propelled yard tractor by the Ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach needing to reduce port emissions. Since you seem well tuned to this market, can you shed some light as to why Nissan (Leaf) and other pure electric car makers are staying with 1000's of small cylinder cells at 5~10 a-hr instead of the larger cells? I've always wondered about that.

[T1 Terry]

Weight and area they take up in the vehicle. by using small capacity cells they can be built into the floor pan, a quick and simply separation between the battery pack, the drive train module, the body and the suspension units. Each has a specialty construction team, and one team to connect it all together. It's very hard for a manufacturer who has always built internal combustion engine vehicles to change over night, the staff all have prejudices of their own as well, so they build hybrid vehicle as that stepping stone between one and the other.
Tesla take a different approach, all the sections are built by multi purpose robots, the final assembly is still a human team but they each have a task to do, but every one of them knows every task that is involved in that particular section of assembly. This way there are no weak links in the team, anyone can slot into any position so a member down won't stop the team, the spare rotational member just slots in. Also, they can rotate positions to break the monotony that a repetitive task creates, this keeps the team well trained in every aspect of the job without it becoming a repetitive retraining program. The Tesla unit has around a 400km range I think as it is designed to be an internal combustion power vehicle alternative.
The Chinese have taken a different path, a bit like Balqon actually, they build heavy regular city use vehicles like buses and delivery trucks, as well as taxi fleets. Their problem is air pollution, so by replacing the pollution producing vehicles with non polluting vehicles that can move the pollution generation out of the major cities. The bigger vehicles use quick swap battery packs, the taxis use fast recharging as it’s a much smaller battery pack, lunch break or change of shift or cleaning and maintenance time, all down time that can be used for pack recharging. They play all of that stuff very close to the chest, there isn’t much information as far as what they are learning getting out into the big wide world, but sodium batteries are one of the spin offs, life cycle is still down around the same as the old LiFeP04 stuff before the yttrium upgrade, but they are much cheaper to make apparently.
Professor Jay Whitacre is in the midst of his own development of salt water batteries, too big for transport use, but they look the goods for home power storage and grid balancing, maybe even the basis for fast charging stations of the future, so it’s all looking good for this changing of the guard from lead acid to lithium gaining momentum in the near future. You may have notice, all modern vehicle’s electrical systems have gradually dropped back to 13.2v systems rather than the 14.4v systems, the lead acid start batteries aren’t handling it too well with early in life failures, I wouldn’t be surprised to see lithium ferrous batteries move into this market in a big way any time soon, a 40Ah battery would easily replace the standard car battery, a huge saving in space and weight and no problems with fast discharge or recharge. They won't care about a BMS either, 13.2v is unlikely to produce a cell run away.

T1 Terry

[deckofficer]

Terry, I knew you were good, everything is spot on. Tesla bought the Fremont Toyota plant for the Tesla Model S, and their top option battery banks is good for 300+ miles. I got to drive the Tesla Roadster from Roseville to North Shore Lake Tahoe over a 7600' summit. The car was charged in Palo Alto, so had over 120 miles already on the bank, I thought maybe a quick charge someplace before pulling the mountain but the owner says he drives this trip all the time. He was right of course, and as I was nearing the summit with still over 1/3 of a tank of electrons, I decided it was time for spirited driving. To me now, gas engines are so weak kneed, not being able to pick up much speed at 6000' and 6* grade without downshifting and screaming the engine while all I had to do was roll on some throttle and silent G forces, in the only gear it has.

[ebaugh]

We just did a 48 hour trip from Panama to San Andres Island. My alternators are set to about 13.4V. The last 24 hours we floated, cells showing 3.34 to 3.35V until we dropped anchor. But the amp meter still showed about 10A charge into a 1200 Ah bank off the alternators. After I shut the propulsion engines off, I started the generator to see how close to "full" we were. About 20 minutes later, at 100A charge, we had 3.5 Vpc at 14.0V and I stopped the charge. That's really close to 100% SOC. Temps were sort of high, 102-104 degrees F enroute and for the top off.

Preliminary conclusion..3.35 Vpc held over a long period will give you around 97% SOC. Higher than I thought it would. At least in the tropics...

[hellosailor]

Bob-
"Tesla bought the Fremont Toyota plant for the Tesla Model S, and their top option battery banks is good for 300+ miles." Even on the left coast, surely you've heard that Tesla and the NYTimes are having a rather loud ****ing contest about Tesla's latest batteries and range? The Times correspondent claims he spent hours on the phone with Tesla while testing one of their cars, ran out of power way before he was supposed to, and was throughly disappointed in the product and the support. Tesla said outright he was lying about many things, which is not impossible but is highly unlikely. This one will probably end in the courts. Since Tesla did not ask other reporters to just take the same car out and see for themselves...one suspects Tesla actually can't make their claims this time around.

Terry-
"That looks like stock trading figures at the top of that link, anyone know of a bankrupt company that is still trading shares on the stock market?"
Get a good night's sleep and then put up a pot of good coffee, start over again.
No one said BALQON was bankrupt. Balqon is a wholy owned subsidiary of the Winston companies, and the bankruptcy reports are of the parent Winston companies, which own Balqon, and not of Balqon itself.

Yes, it is in fact normal and not in the least unusual for some units, some divisions, some properties, some subsidiaries to be making a profit while their parent corporation has gone broke. That's basic to how bankruptcies are ordered in the US, the parts (i.e. wholy owned subsidiaries) that are still making a profit are sold off to pay off the bankruptcy creditors.

Except of course in this case, if Balqon is not making a profit and is only being kept alive by consuming assets...Well, if a corporation is losing money and not making a profit, what happens when the money runs out? The Port of Los Angeles may be stuck with a mess of inoperable EVs, the same way the US taxpayers got stuck owning Solyndra.

This would also tie into why Balqon had a "fire sale" and cleared out batteries. Maybe someone said "raise cash, sell anything that's not nailed down and get rid of the inventory!" or someone discovered forgotten assets that could be sold. Maybe the clearance batteries had previously been set aside as warranty replacements, in order to ensure that they could be made with the same chemistry, instead of different chemistry as new products were being phased in. And someone said sell them now, we can't afford to hold inventory.

I knew a company run by a man who had live through some very lean times. He insisted that eveyrthing he sold, had to make SOME profit. No loss leaders, no clearance, everything had to be priced and sold at a profit. And when his company went bankrupt, there were still rooms full of obsolete product that simply could never be sold even at his cost. But he insisted, sell them at a profit, even while he was paying more money to rent warehouse space for the newer items that could have been kept in the main building for "free" if he'd just given away the obsolete stuff. He understood how to drive a hard bargain, but he had no grasp of the larger issues of "finance".

The marvels of finance. Even without shell companies, subsidiaries, foreign masters and Chinese national intrigue, it can be a fascinating game. Betting on whether it is Winston or Sinopoly that is either a bad guy or in trouble? Well that should be a safe bet either way, since we all know these batteries will all last forever and only the purchase price counts. Right?

Not me, thanks. I have had orphaned products before, I try to avoid that.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by ebaugh

We just did a 48 hour trip from Panama to San Andres Island. My alternators are set to about 13.4V. The last 24 hours we floated, cells showing 3.34 to 3.35V until we dropped anchor. But the amp meter still showed about 10A charge into a 1200 Ah bank off the alternators. After I shut the propulsion engines off, I started the generator to see how close to "full" we were. About 20 minutes later, at 100A charge, we had 3.5 Vpc at 14.0V and I stopped the charge. That's really close to 100% SOC. Temps were sort of high, 102-104 degrees F enroute and for the top off.

Preliminary conclusion..3.35 Vpc held over a long period will give you around 97% SOC. Higher than I thought it would. At least in the tropics...

Man you had perfect weather for that... no wind here in Colon at all...

[ebaugh]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Man you had perfect weather for that... no wind here in Colon at all...

It was very nice..3 foot seas or less and about 10 KTS to keep the boat cool. Now if we can find that for the 400nm Providencia to Roatan. Sorry we missed you, we left from Portobelo, and never quite made Colon, except by bus....did not see you at Portobelo, but there were a lot of boats there.

[durundal]

Originally Posted by roetter

I want to help fiend replace his LA batts on a cat with LiFePo. I want to keep it simple for him and I am considering the per-packaged Balqon 12 V 90Ah times 6 batteries for him. Does anyone know what is inside the box I terms of BMS , specifically HVC and LVC?

The other option would be 4 times 700Ah clearance cells. But this would require that I have to spend two weeks with him installing and testing everything and I live on the other side of the continent.

Thanks for the help.

The 12V Winston packs don't have anything inside besides the bus bars and banding, there is a video of a German did opening one on a counter on YouTube and a couple dozen pages back on this. I tried ordering one from Balquonabout two weeks ago and they didn't have any or expect any to come in in the foreseeable future, I ended up buying some 100Ah cells from Evolve Electrics and they shipped the next day, though I had to order the materials to do the banding separately (which is annoying what with the standardized nature of the cells and the piece part shipping costs for the plate, would rather have been able to buy it as a kit, hint hint)...

Andy

[dlentz]

The marvels of finance. Even without shell companies, subsidiaries, foreign masters and Chinese national intrigue, it can be a fascinating game. Betting on whether it is Winston or Sinopoly that is either a bad guy or in trouble? Well that should be a safe bet either way, since we all know these batteries will all last forever and only the purchase price counts. Right?

Not me, thanks. I have had orphaned products before, I try to avoid that.[/QUOTE]

Great maybe this thread can get back on topic, and stop the doomsday predictions. I don't see/hear anyone twisting anyone's arm to dive into this. If you don't want to tread here, fine, but please move on.
I know nothing of all of this, oh yea my 700 ah hour cells arrived a couple of weeks ago (on time and as advertised from that Bankrupted Co.) and so far all I know is you don't want to experience a complete internal short, however, compared to the equivalent LA event, quite tame and safe, really! (PS: My fault not the batteries)